EPISODE 1: They Existed— A Conversation on Grief and Loss
In this podcast, Dani Fake and I engage in a heartfelt discussion about the intricacies of grief and loss after the sudden death of a parent. Through our personal stories, we explore the unexpected emotions of losing someone, the search for understanding and acceptance, and the realization that those who have passed away continue to exist in our memories and lives. This episode is a candid exploration of how grief reshapes our relationships, our understanding of existence, and our approach to healing.
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Sarah: [00:00:00] So we're starting this podcast. So here's why I feel like I really know my way around like all aspects of emotions or many apparently. And unfamiliar landscapes. I know my way through shit I've never dealt with. Like, I really feel like I know my way.
And this is a completely new land that I don't know and when I predictably I'll go into a little funk and then I'll come out and I'll kind of talk to somebody about it, somebody real close maybe they'll say, oh yeah, that is a thing or, yeah, actually that happened to me too.
And I'm like, it's kind of like, you don't have them bio kids. Do you Dani?
Dani: No,
Sarah: there's like this. it's like a club. No one told you about like, oh, I didn't know but they all know. I guess just like there's
Dani: and you can't really know until you know.
Sarah: And then sometimes you're like experiencing things and you're like, Oh, I've always known this, but I didn't actually know what this meant.
It's like I knew what this was called. but I didn't really get it. So, I've just been trying to figure this shit out and It occurred to me a couple days ago that maybe we could just figure it out. Like there are a handful of [00:01:00] people who I feel like are kindreds and we've all lost people very recently.
I hear people talking about grief. I hear them talking about things that I identify with, but I personally don't want someone to, while I'm going through a process, I don't want someone to outline it for me. I'm going to find the outline as I go. so I just want to talk to people so that we can figure out, oh, if you're doing that and I'm doing that, maybe that's a thing.
Maybe that's a commonality. And we both know what we're talking about. So maybe we should not be as vague. So me Sarah, my my mama died, I guess, a couple of months ago, I don't know, nine weeks ago or something.
So it's real, real, real new. And you know, that's the, the facts of the grief that I'm grappling with. How about you, Dani? Happening for you.
Dani: So I lost my father about four months ago, four and a half months ago. June 2nd, 2023. And I don't know, obviously the background. No, we don't need to compare.
That's another thing. And like, why do we need to compare? My story is my dad was not sick. He wasn't too [00:02:00] bright. But I got a call one day in May that he had gone into the hospital for something that should have been very easily treatable and fixed spent a week out there, came home for 11 days, got another call.
Like, so just, you know, from the time hospital three weeks later, he was gone. relate actually to what you're saying because of course, you know, as an adult, you're going to lose your parents at some point and I didn't, well, I didn't even know I had this. But I became aware that I had a story about what that would be like.
It was, Nowhere even fricking close to it.
Sarah: Did you know you had that story? Or are you just finding Oh, this isn't what I thought. Are you are you seeing the story that you had now that it's not being full in its absence?
Dani: Yeah, well I think what I had, what I had was the story and it's interesting because how this has played out with my own mother because my mother is still alive and
Sarah: Were they married?
Dani: No. one point they were. They divorced when I was seven. They've both been married to other people forever. So Yeah, I just always had this thought like my dad's gonna die at some point and this is how like it was just like This is how it's going to [00:03:00] affect me.
It's going to be sad And i'm going like and like and I guess that's protective but then when it actually happened. It spun me into I don't even know this. This is why I'm so glad we're doing this because I spent two months after he died. The number one word I used to describe it was confusion. I am so confused about how I feel.
I am so confused about why this is happening. I, none of this makes sense to me. None of this is logical. I can't figure it out. I Googled grief book after grief book after grief book. I'm a therapist and a grief coach. And I deal with the most, same thing. I have like, Oh, I thought I was pretty good at this.
So it's, it's interesting to try to find language for, and even I found it interesting that I was literally trying to find a book of like, not, you know, the loving, wonderful, connected father that, that you have and they die. And what's that like? Because that wasn't my relationship with my father.
Where's the book about my experience?
Sarah: Yeah.
Dani: Yeah, how about you? Like, what was your [00:04:00] expectation versus reality or, I mean, you're a little, you're, I'm about twice as far out as you are. Two months versus four months.
Sarah: I was just gonna say maybe you're less confused than I thought, or maybe you're fucking twice as confused because it seems to be getting weirder as we go.
So my, yeah, yeah, that is really interesting. I was pretty close to my mom. And it is pretty clean. I don't feel unresolved. I feel I feel complete. I feel well mothered. I feel like I imagine I can feel a big difference between myself now and had I lost her as a younger woman when I still needed shepherding.
And or mothering and I still need mothering and she did a really good job. Like I'm good. And all of that at the same time. So, so that's, you know, the state of our relationship. What was the question? Oh, the expectation was. That she would get sick, and because my mother was 73 type 2 diabetes, and [00:05:00] smoked a lot, and drank a lot of Diet Coke, and her sleep schedule was not good, and I figured she'd stroke out, and we'd have a pain in the ass, like, end of life experience, that I, I know how to do that.
She knows how to do that. And I thought if there's anything undone, any questions unasked, we'd handle it and it'd be great. And she'd go and it would be time and whatever. And we, we have talked about her death. I, you know, she, she did a really good job of leaving me pretty good instructions. There's a couple things that are unanswered that are going to be a little messy But I mean there's stuff in my handwriting when we were going through her house like oh You need to know about this she would say and then I'd write it down You know a lot of that stuff is is there so it's not that I haven't contemplated her death And in fact, she bought some really fantastic chairs Maybe a month before she died and my first words were well, maybe they were fuck you because she She found them.
But the other ones were "Oh, I get those when you die." I mean, I knew theoretically that she was going to die. [00:06:00] And my, my dad is in worse health and I, I've started to kind of wrap my mind around. I may, may lose him sooner than I thought. And I don't know, just find my way there. And no, they divorced when I was a year and a half old.
So, or a year old or something. So Yeah, both, you know, remarried forever. So similar. And so I had started to kind of wrap my mind around I am going to be, I am going to start losing parents. I am entering that it hadn't happened yet. My dad's still kicking and good. And so I did not. ever, ever anticipate that I would, that she would die in an accident.
Like 70 year olds, I guess some year olds have accidents, but they die of other stuff supposed to, or they break their hip and then they die of pneumonia. You know, it, it sends a cascade of issues. I know that, but there's
time. She fell down the flight of stairs and never regained consciousness. [00:07:00] And I was with her. So. This is really interesting and fucked up. I had this vision for a healing house. It was Wholeness House. I had been going through the thickest worst grief patch of my Life
not the darkest because I knew my way through, but a really, really painful dark period before she died. And and I found that I didn't have the, the plate, the space, or the privacy to do some of the grieving I wanted to do. The screaming, or the crying, or the catharsis or I wanted to get in an ice plunge and I didn't have one and just I didn't have the things around me and I thought, okay, literally feeling feelings is my job.
And like no hyperbole and, and I am so devoted to this and if I don't have the time and place and space, no one does. And, and so I, I set to work and I spent [00:08:00] about six months or nine months dreaming or crystallizing. Really been there for a long time, a vision of a house and I was going to run it as a short term rental.
I was going to, you know, listed on Airbnb, but it was really a house devoted to healing. And I rented this house and I knew I, I knew I would have it. And I got the keys that week and my mom and I went over there to look at it for me to, you know, just show her around my new house. And she was opening doors and just checking stuff out.
We were talking and and she opened the basement doors and they, I think the vertigo got her and she fell.
Dani: Wow. So you had booked on and you were visiting your house that you had set up for this healing experience for people.
Sarah: Right. Which is so interesting to me.
Dani: Yeah, it is.
Sarah: And it like, And I, I did get out of the lease.
I'm not keeping that house, by the way. I didn't keep the house.
Dani: Yeah, I just, so Sarah, what I feel aware of, as you're sharing all of that is, like when you're saying, You, Sarah, I navigate [00:09:00] emotion and yet I have no idea how to do this.
Like, listen to what you just shared, right? It's not only the grief you're already experiencing. The loss of a mother, a good mother. Like that's just one of the hardest things a human will go through. But then the, and the fact that it was an accident, just straight up accident as opposed to the health thing.
within an accident that happened in this house if you like there this house of healing there there are so many layers there that part of me wants to be like i don't care if you're like the emotions whisperer of the the galaxy who would possibly know how to navigate those layers
Sarah: Yeah, I don't.
Dani: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And you shouldn't, like, of course you don't. Who, yeah. It doesn't make it any easier.
Sarah: It's fine. Like, like, really, like, when we talk about that, honestly, I have a pretty deep level of acceptance, but then on the day to day basis, when I do need to function in ways, and I [00:10:00] function as little as possible, let's be clear.
I do not ask myself to do anything I don't want to do, really, ever. And even less now, but there are still some tasks that are a part of a life that I want that are not pleasant. And you know, if you're stressed, you're the stress is going to find its way to the weakest part of your body.
It's not that that body part is actually injured. It's just that's the weakest link kind of, you know, and the weakest link for me is executive functioning. And so, like, that's always where I'm going to struggle the most, even on my best day. And, and so, yes, like, okay, it's fine. I don't know my way around. I know it's actually very interesting.
I'll find my way. Like, I'm really fine without a lot of levels, but then also. I can't open my email like, but really, but like really can't open my email, but like 50 times worse and it sort of matters 50 times more and so bringing that to the actual daily experience of I don't know what the fuck is [00:11:00] something.
Dani: Yeah. You know, and I'm sure you know this, but maybe, maybe some people don't like the. One of the hardest, I can't even, I can't categorize, I can't say it's the hardest, and impact, and impact of grief is the cognitive, right? And so like the, what's the executive functioning like and that can be really, really discombobulating.
You're trying to deal with the loss and with all that it means, and can't function over here in your day to day life. Like the lack of just the powerlessness. I had to sorry, can I, I was gonna say, can I please your turn? Yeah, for sure. I just, I had two instances like that. One, and this is a little bit embarrassing because it really, you'll see why, but it feels important to share like almost in like, I am, I am certain I'm not the only person that has had something like this.
I was, so my dad died in June and I had a, I was launching a program that July 19th. And so it was the beginning of July. I'm trying to do the marketing for this. [00:12:00] Oh
God,
girl, tell me, tell me about it. So I'm sitting here literally in this place and I am worn to the bone and a friend of mine was on zoom just like this and we, she was supposed to be helping me with something around this program.
And I sat down and I saw her face and I just started crying and she's like, Hey, what's going on? And all I could say is I need to eat. I just, I just need to eat. And oh my goodness, I say it's ridiculous. Like I am 53 years old. I have been feeding myself since I probably five, whatever. I was unable to, this is so crazy, but literally unable to figure out how to feed myself.
And my friend, bless her heart. She was like, okay, Dani, I'm just going to walk you. She's like, can you just tell, are you able to tell me what you have in your refrigerator? And I said, I have blueberries. So Anything else? I said, I have yogurt. [00:13:00] She said, okay, do you want to eat blueberries and yogurt? And I said, yes, she said, okay So can you go get a bowl?
Can you pull those two things out of the fridge and get up? I mean, this was the level though. You walking me through like I was like, what is wrong with and thank God I've like Done enough of this work. I know other people to be like, okay, this is normal as fucked up as this is right now. This is somewhat normal for what I'm going through, but to be that incapacitated to have somebody have to walk you through that level of detail to eat a bowl of yogurt.
I don't even know what to do with it. Right. It's just, yeah. Yeah. What's that bringing up in you?
Sarah: Yeah, it's well I think the, the tears are just for the, just for that tenderness. You know, that's just such a
kind of childlike position.
Dani: Oh my god, yeah.
Sarah: And it's just so lovely that your friend met you [00:14:00] there and, and met you. Simple enough. I find that most people that I go to are pretty kind, but they don't know how simple they really need to get like, they don't, they don't actually, I mean, not always, but they don't, they don't, they don't always meet me at that level.
Maybe because nobody can comprehend that that somebody is as great as I am, or as great as you are, would not be able to do that. I just feel really moved that your friend saw that and, and walked you through it.
Dani: Yeah.
Yeah. And I felt very held in that moment.
Cause it's been a very lonely, you know, I'm, I, I am single and I do live alone.
Usually that's fine. This is really exacerbated. And so I felt very, very held in that moment. By her.
Sarah: You know, before my mom died, I couldn't eat and I literally and I lost probably 30 or 40 pounds. And it's interesting [00:15:00] because of course people congratulate me on my weight loss and how good I feel.
And I'm always like, brought to you by gummy worms and grief. Brought to you by like extreme craziness. So I couldn't, I couldn't eat. I couldn't tolerate it. I couldn't figure out how to get it together. I was not always as incapacitated as you were talking about, but I was maybe just a couple notches up.
Like I literally couldn't feed myself. I'm not quite sure how the kids ate. I think they foraged. I think they probably forged through what we had. And every once in a while I'd order groceries. We'd do DoorDash sometimes and, you know, we just sort of cobble it together day to day. And I, I would eat gummy gummies because it was literally the only thing I could stomach and like the sugar would keep me going for a while.
And I remember thinking like, Oh, this isn't always going to work, but it's working. It was, it was like a weird, it was like taking diet pills. It was like, Oh, I'm hungry. Let me get a couple of gummy worms. I'll have to deal with it for a while.
Dani: Where
would you say
[00:16:00] you are with it now?
Sarah: I mean, I'm having a pretty good few days. I mean, I don't even really know, let's see, like what's happening now. So part of what has been happening, and I, I am partly regretting and partly know that I won't regret, like, I really do believe that it's, it's happening the way it's supposed to as my mom's celebration of life is. A week from now. So she, you know, she died on the 14th of August and her celebration of life is October 29th and we decided that in the hospital.
So I am, oh my gosh, my mom has two friends from kindergarten and one of them was with me in the hospital. She came up the day after my mom fell and And then her and her other friend had had recently had surgery and couldn't fly, so she couldn't be here, but they have done the majority of the work to plan the celebration of life.
They have held me. I have done very little except put in my opinion when I could. It's been beautiful. And the celebration of life is like still not here. And so I [00:17:00] have to do things related to it. So it's not just doing things, but it's like doing things for my mom, which makes it a million times harder and more important because I really do want to have done this stuff.
So And I'm doing the bare minimum anyway. So it's like, they're kind of doing everything else. It's like, I don't really have anything to put on to someone else, you know anyway, that had been a little difficult. I've been really, really dreading it. I've been dreading people.
I didn't want to see her picture. I didn't want to think about her. Like, I wanted a break from it. Like, I'd been grieving hard for six months and then she died. Like, fucking leave me alone for a minute. You know, just like, let me, like, have a week. And and so I was really dreading that. And right now I'm feeling, I'm actually feeling a lot of relief from that.
I've done a lot of the tasks that I was putting off, which feels good. And I'm actually looking forward to it now. And. So that has moved and that makes it a lot easier because I'm not doing this dance of [00:18:00] dreading it, watching myself literally refuse to feel, partly knowing that's probably okay, but also that's against every rule that I've been following forever.
Internal rule. And. Trying to be okay with that. I mean, I am and it's weird. Yeah, and then I feel terrible and then I'm like, I would feel better if I could feel but I'm not going to so I guess it'll just suck.
Dani: Yeah,
Sarah: where are you with it? How are you going through the world now?
Dani: I'm I mean, better. I don't, I mean, that's, that's so relative.
Sarah: Yeah.
Dani: It, the, the acuity of the first two months is acuity. Is that the right word?
Sarah: Sure.
Dani: Okay. Acute. Yeah. Of the first two months.
Sarah: Acuteness. Yeah.
Dani: That has, that has lightened up a lot.
There are, A few, like, shortly after he died, I had a lot, a lot, a lot of dreams. A couple of them had him, but a lot of dreams did not include him, but were very vivid, vivid and very intense. And so, like, the [00:19:00] dreams have subsided. And so everything feels more muted and more subtle. Like I'll be aware, you know, like, my stepmother and his.
5th wedding anniversary would have been last Friday. And so even though it's not my anniversary, I'm still like aware of it and, you know, reached out to her and there have been some things around just questions about legacy, like who So I guess, sorry, let me answer your question. It's not as acute, I can say that, but there's things that still nag and linger.
And it is both his legacy and my legacy. I, one of the hardest things is my dad was, he was such a, like a, just a big presence. He was one of the most intelligent people I knew, like, like, you know, towards genius status, kind of, kind of intelligence. It's just a big personality, took up a lot of space.
And you can imagine there's a, there's a negative side that comes with some of that as well. When I look at who this man was and what his [00:20:00] potential was he was a very successful dentist for 44 years before he retired. And then the last he, he drank most of, of my adult life. But especially the last 10 years after he had retired, he died at 82, he retired at 70.
His drinking was out of control. It's actually kind of surprising to me that he lived as long as he did, given the reality of what that was, I just watched this. Strong like powerful, room feeling, fun, joyous man intensity of a man, kind of dwindled down into this, like, all he would do is watch sports and Fox News and drink.
Sports and Fox News and drink. And I say Fox news. It's a little statement of anything other than like his whole, he would, all he focused on was sports and politics and angry politics. Like he was a ngry. And of course I couldn't, I'm not political anyway, but then if I was political, we would be on opposite sides of things.
So it was just, I didn't know how to relate to him at the end of [00:21:00] his life. And so all this to say. The two words that come up a lot for me now are legacy and tragedy. So like his legacy, like at the end of his life and how, what does that mean about me and my, like, like, I don't have the answer to any of this.
I'm wrestling with all of this, but then the tragedy piece is like, what, I want to be like, dad, what happened to you? Like what you had your life. Yeah. could have been so much happier, so much more fulfilled. So, and, and it is tragic to me. It's like a tragedy of life. What happened to him at the end of his life and what then, and I know I've, I've done some work around this, but like, because I'm the therapist, right.
And the emotional one I had, I didn't even, I did not know I had this until after he died is this sense of like, Someday, we'll be able to have this really meaningful conversation where I'll be able to save him. Right. Or I'll be able to, [00:22:00] I'll be able to turn this around for him.
Sarah: I know,
Dani: you know, and so, so those are the things that kind of haunt me.
It's just,
Sarah: so
that's interrupted.
That pattern is interrupted. That hope is the hope you've been living with for however long reshapes everything. I know. I
Dani: didn't know what I was living with until he died. And then it was like, I now, now I can't. Like that, that was, that's still hard.
Sarah: Yeah.
Dani: And I, I feel like, did I fail him? You know, and I feel like I can hear anybody listening to this being like, no, no, no. Couldn't, it's like, I know that, I know that.
Sarah: No, I'm here with you there's
Dani: still that voice.
Sarah: Yeah.
Dani: It's like, what if I had, what if I had tried something different? I mean, I do know, like, the chances of him being open to it are slim
to none,
Sarah: but
what if
you found the way, what if you could find the lever, the thing that would crack it, that would wake him up, what if, what if you had, I know,
Dani: yeah, yeah, so [00:23:00] that's, and I feel
like those are going to be,
Sarah: are you just clicking back through all those , in your mind, just clicking through all the places where you could have, maybe it was here, maybe it was here, like all the, I feel like they're levers, like, I see them in a particular way, you know, it's like, well, maybe if I had done it here, everything would have shifted.
Maybe if I had done it here, here, here, you know, you can kind of see All these, are you doing that? Are you clicking through all the, you know, the moment you could have done this thing that you're always trying to do?
Dani: Not that directly anymore. I was like, when this was coming up, I think where I'm at now rather than the specificity of like looking for the lovers, I think what I feel more aware of now is The fact that, like, that pain or that wondering or that the reality of maybe I, maybe I could have done something is, is permanently done.
It's, it's just more the sense of like, I'll, I will live with this for the rest of my life. And not, I say it like I'm taking it on as guilt. I'm, I'm really not, but there's I will have this for the rest of my life, [00:24:00] you know, like,
Sarah: yeah.
Dani: What if I had made more effort? What if I had done, you know, and
I had been in that right before this was so, this is where I'm like, what is the universe doing?
I, you know, haven't done a ton of work around my story with my dad and there's a lot, there's a lot of drama there from my childhood, but right before he died, probably in the, I don't know, four months before he died, I had just actually started therapy doing some really deep work with my anger and rage towards my dad.
I'm literally in the middle of this anger and rage and he died. You know, somewhat suddenly it was three weeks, but it wasn't like he was a long illness. It's when I had to take, like, what the fuck do you do with that? Right? So now, like, there's the guilt and the what about this. That got really, really messy.
Because I was so deep in my rage towards him. And then he died in the middle of that.
Sarah: Oh, I
bet.
Dani: So that, that was kind of messy too.
Sarah: Damn. Yeah. That is messy.
Dani: So I was like, why universe? Like, I could have done this. 10 years ago. Yeah, [00:25:00] it is what it is.
Sarah: Or he could've died like six months later.
Dani: Exactly.
Sarah: Engulfed in flames. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, that sense of I've done this something I don't live with. And I am very aware of that.
I literally cannot find a way that this could have been prevented. I cannot find it. I, it's just, I, I always am really chill with shit that's broken. I'm not chill if I think I can fix it. Let's be clear. If I think there's hope, I can get neurotic as hell. But if it's broken, I'm like, It's done. I just don't argue.
I'm just like, it's done. It's no use crying over spilled milk, really. Like that's just very deep in my core and that, that was my mom. She broke it. She broke. It's done. Like there's, there's no arguing. There's no sense of undone. There's no, what if I had called her? Like I did call her and we were hanging out.
I [00:26:00] was doing the things that I wanted to, like all of that was there. And I think you know this, but I'll say this for anybody listening. I'm not. I don't know, I'm not playing like a one up game, like, like, look at me, how lucky I am. It's just, I am very aware that I am not living with that sense of undone.
And I and I have thought a lot about people who who were in a fight and then somebody died. We're looking forward to the end of the story. And someone died who their partner sent him a text and said, I am going to fuck you properly later. And then they died on the way.
Dani: As you're saying that what is coming up is I'm thinking again, thinking about anyone listening to this. You cannot put the impacts of grief and loss into any kind of a box or checklist. We all know that the, the, the elements that play into grief because it's relationally based and relationships are so complex on so many levels.
Grief is so complex on so many levels. Put those two things together and it [00:27:00] just. Every experience is so remarkably unique, which. I imagine can feel isolating, but then there's enough overlap where you're like, Oh yeah, this is a human experience
Sarah: too.
There's also a little disappointment in that, you know, I think on some level, I always think I can transcend the human experience because I get it.
Like if I get the human experience. If I study it, if I know it, then maybe I don't have to live it. That is disappointing every time. It's not true.
Dani: This situation is really throwing a rock
on your face.
Sarah: Oh right.
Dani: Yeah, right. Yeah. Yeah. What was your main prompting for wanting to do this today?
Sarah: Let's see. It just happened a couple days ago, and it was definitely a blinding light from the universe. So per usual, let me figure out where to start. All I care about is [00:28:00] death. I'm sort of obsessed with it. So also, so I'm going to say a lot more words than, than you asked for. I knew that death work would be my next phase.
I just thought it was like next decade. And now I'm seeing that it's probably like now, like starting now. So I've just been letting myself follow that obsession. I've always loved, I've actually walked a lot of creatures and people home actually. Especially when I start kind of counting, you know, I, I take it for granted.
And once I say it out loud or counted, I'm like, Oh shit, like I've got a lot of, a lot of bodies, you know for somebody not in, in that industry, you know, I'm not a nurse or whatever. I love that whole process of transition. And so anyway, I've just let myself follow that obsession and, and for the last few weeks, I've been completely obsessed with near death experiences.
And so maybe not even a few weeks, like a week or something before this. And do you do that? Do you go on like hyper fixations for a little while on [00:29:00] one topic and then drop it? Yeah.
Dani: Yeah.
Sarah: So I had near death experiences and I realized, I think what I'm. I, I wonder if a lot of you do it's what I, what I realized I was doing was, Oh, that's what happened to her.
That's where she is. It's like the way of, Oh, that's where my mom is. Like, that makes sense to me. I can, I can fill in those pieces of the story. It's very comforting to me. And, and of course, it's very interesting. It's just interesting on its own accord. Anyway, so I, I've been obsessed with NDAs and I was taking a bath and this guy was interviewing this woman who had a near death experience and he hadn't, he was just asking her questions.
And I just, I was just like, Oh, I don't actually have to know what I'm doing. What if I just start a podcast and just talk to my friends and figure out what the fuck this is. And then when I'm tired of talking about the fresh grief, maybe I can interview some people that had near death experiences.
And then when I'm tired of that, I can talk to the death doulas because I'm going to want to.
Dani: Yeah.
Sarah: And so I, [00:30:00] one of the things I, I've been thinking about this for a little while. And the, what did, one of the things that had really held me back was not because of imperfection, but just because I literally don't know what I'm doing.
And so I don't know how to guide a podcast and I don't know how to hold space. And I, you know, I can't lead a conversation in the way that I could around any other topic. If I were hosting a podcast, this is a really blind leading the blind. And so in that bath, I mean, it was just, you know, earlier this week, it was like, this guy has like 7, 000 episodes of near death experiences and he has never had one.
Why can't I do that? You know, essentially. So then I dropped it and then I don't know what, I don't know what happened. Something happened maybe the next day or the day after. And I was like, why don't I just do it? And so I texted you, Hey, I have a terrible idea.
Dani: Let's hop on and talk about our day. Want to do it and
Sarah: see
Dani: what happens?
Sarah: They
Dani: just died and we don't know what we're talking about? Wanna? And you're like, yeah, of course I do. And they crack me up like, [00:31:00] so what are you going to do with this after we record them?
Sarah: Oh, my gosh.
Dani: This may be totally out of left field. Maybe you'll edit this out later. But as you're like, an alignment that I'm feeling is, first of all, in terms of both working in the emotional world, I think you're a little more. Yeah, we've been very similar in that regard.
And one of the things that I, as I look at shifting my career, but I guess I'm adding to my career is grief and death. And so I'm actually looking at taking a class on, on death and dying. And I'll look like, I was like, Oh my gosh, I'm fascinated with that too. And like,
Sarah: Oh, take
one with me.
I'll tell you the one that we're going to take.
Do you know Dr. Martha Atkins? That's the one I was looking for! Do you know Dr. Martha Atkins? Oh,
Dani: That's the one I, like, last spring it came out. She's like, I was like, when does this open?
Because I've been following her for a while. And it was like, registration doesn't open until November. And I was like, damn it! Okay, but it is on my calendar on October 31st to make sure I am paying attention to November. I love that synchronicity. I love that.
Sarah: Yeah. And she, I don't know if you know, she was a part of she was the [00:32:00] director for this place called abode, which is like a, do you know about it?
It's like a, it wasn't a hospice, but it's a, you know, a home where people could come and die. And I have been enamored with that model.
I keep working it into my vision.work So now I'm like, and I'm not, this is not, I'm not saying it's going to happen, but I am like. Oh, maybe I don't do wholeness house.
Maybe I do wholeness house, but it's for dying. You know, this is where you come to die. This is what I've always wanted to do. Why don't I just do that? And that's also for wholeness. There's also space for retreat. There's also space for, yes, grieving. I mean, that's exactly what's
Dani: so sacred about it.
Sarah: So those it's a holiest,
Dani: you know, not everybody, I feel like we can, I'll toot both of our horns here.
I hope this doesn't sound arrogant and you need to edit this out too. But I feel like not, not everybody has the capacity to actually really, really be with. The, the deepest pains of the deepest crises of life without trying to fix it. First of [00:33:00] all, some people can't just be with it at all.
Others just want to move to fixing it. And with good reason, like I get it. It's super difficult. . Super painful. And for whatever reason, I feel like I, I not only can be with it, but thrive in it because I feel like I can work with people and have a sense you're the same.
Sarah: Yeah. I just got an insight.
Thank you so much for, for articulating that. Absolutely. A hundred percent. But I think part of the reason I like the, death transition is because this body is no longer viable. It's broken. The ship has sailed There is nothing to fix here. There is nothing to hope for you Can't do it wrong because it's ending if if you fuck it up and they in today They were going tomorrow anyway, like it just strips all the bullshit.
I think it hits that part of me that really accepts like, well, it's broken. It's done. It's done. Yeah. Yeah. We're okay. We're done [00:34:00] here. A moment. Where I didn't, I think I felt a little guilty about this until I articulated. I just recently got this piece and I wonder what, I'm really curious what you'll say about this, there's this point where you realize the body is no longer viable.
There's a point where you think maybe maybe it is, and then there's a point where you realize it's not, and I don't know if everybody knows when that moment is, but I do. So, and it was very quick, and I would have missed it because it wasn't an illness, but there was still a moment, and, and what it was, was I was waiting for EMS to come, and, I was giving her CPR and talking to 9 1 1 and doing mouth to mouth, you know, in that, that process.
And I just had this like flash of what it was, maybe I thought, it was like, should I hope, what's happening here? You know, it's like my brain, like trying to make sense of what is this, I guess, and I want them to hurry, but [00:35:00] I'm not sure we need to, you know, just like trying to make sense of what it was.
And, and I just had this flash of like, what it was going to take for her to recover from this. I just knew like, this is long. And I thought, Oh God, we can't do that. I just, I just had this like, Oh God, no. And, and I think I had felt guilty about that because, Would I not go to the rehab hospital with her?
Would I not walk her all the way back? Of course I would if she wanted to.
But
I think actually that was the moment where I realized, It was, it was broken, like it was beyond repair. The apparatus was no longer viable, and I think actually that was her making that decision. I think that was her seeing her body and going, I can't, I can't, I don't want to get back in that.
So can
Dani: you think about the near death experiences? She was
Sarah: awake a little, yeah,
Dani: And well, she may have been having that near death experience. And [00:36:00] because often you see in those stories, people are faced with the choice, given, given the choice.
I can come back into this body. Oh. And when we're hearing the story of the near death experiences of people that have chosen to come back, but maybe it was your mom chose to go,
Sarah: Yeah. So I think I thought that that was me saying that. And that was the guilt, like, you know, a little, I don't know if it's really, really, it's not like relief from the work.
It's just like relief. Like, yeah, we're not. I'm not going to do that. But I think it was her or, or, or we decided together. I'm not, you know, I don't know, but the way I'm, the way that the story is inside of me this week is that was her. And I heard that decision and I, and she left, she left them, you know, her body lasted for a little while, but.
Did you have a, yeah, a moment where you realized this body's not viable? He's not going to come out of this.
Dani: Well, okay. Oh, wow. I'd not thought of it in this way. So I actually would love to hear your reflection on what I'm about to share. I, [00:37:00] I mean, the obvious thing is when he was extubated, you know, like we knew that it was going to happen, but, but actually what's coming up is you're asking this question is, I got a phone call, you know, it was May 15th and, you know, he, he had coded and he was in the ICU and he was on a ventilator and I needed to get there as soon as possible.
Now he did, he did live like three weeks after that, but so I hop in my car in Denver an hour later, drive eight hours, go straight to the hospital. It was eight o'clock at night. All the family had gone home. So it was just me and I had the room number, the hospital room number. And I walked into the room.
And I looked for the board that usually has their name and all of that, but there was, I didn't see anything. So I just looked at the man in this bed and I looked at him and I was like, that's not my dad. I was like, and then I had this panic of like, holy shit, I've got the wrong room. So I went back out to the nurse and I was like, I was like, I'm Tom fake's daughter.
Is this, is it like, what's Tom fake's room? And she's like, yeah, that was it. And I go, that's Tom [00:38:00] fake in there. She goes, yeah, that's your dad. And I burst into tears because I was like, Oh my God, that is my dad. And then just the shame and the guilt and all the feelings of like, I didn't recognize him.
Sarah: Yeah.
Dani: So I went back in and I looked and I like enough, I was like, well, I mean granted he was intubated, but still you recognize your own parent. Yeah. Yeah. You'd think. And I was like, well, I guess it's him. And I look at his hands. I'm like, okay, those are definitely his hands. Okay. So that happened. Now, as you're asking this question, Given that he never regained consciousness after that.
He never spoke again. He never, I don't even know if he knew I was there in those three weeks. It makes me wonder if when I went in and didn't recognize him, it's because it was already done. I don't know. What do you think?
Sarah: Could be. You know, I didn't, I wouldn't have recognized my mom either. I [00:39:00] recognized her hands and probably had I not been there the whole time, you know, I was with, I wasn't with her while they were putting her into ICU.
You know, I, I wasn't with her for about three or four hours, but outside of that, you know, I was, I was there from the beginning. And, and so I guess my brain was able to comprehend that that was her, but it didn't, I wouldn't have recognized her. Had I entered the scene at the point you did, I think my experience would have been similar.
Dani: Interesting. Which would mean because for your mom, you, before she was in those three to four hours and she was going to ICU, you had already had that moment with her. That's what you had just said
Sarah: before the EMS even got there.
Dani: Yeah. Yeah. I'd had
Sarah: it.
Dani: Yeah. Which makes me think my dad had his moment. .
Sarah: That's fascinating.
What's that like to consider that he wasn't there? Do you feel like you missed him? What's that like? What's that like to consider right now?
Dani: That's that's a good question. I just I don't I have a quick answer I it's funny because everything around me as you asked that [00:40:00] got super super peaceful And it makes me wonder like, I wasn't going to share this, but I'm going to share this next. It's very kind of spiritual in a good way.
I was, and you probably know this, I do, I do parts work. And so when all this was happening, I was, I was in Iowa and I had seen him in the hospital for a couple of days and you know, he wasn't, he was moving, but he wasn't conscious. And I was, so I was doing a part meditation, part, just parts work with the little girl in me that was super sad.
And I went on this kind of like a journey, like my, my brain sort of took over this almost like this. spiritual, like shamanic journey kind of thing where I was taken into that hospital. I wasn't, I was at my stepsister's house, but I was taken into the hospital room and all I could see was a little girl sitting on the floor.
And remember I just set up and doing all this therapy and really, really rageful with my father. And so there was a part there that was still rageful, but the little girl, she was probably four or five years old. I was trying to get out of the room [00:41:00] and she was saying, I don't want to leave him. And she crawled up onto the bed with him and put her head over his heart and was saying to me, I'm just going to stay here with him tonight because I don't want him to be alone.
And it was, it was one of the most beautiful experiences because it didn't feel like I was making it up. It felt like I was watching it like a movie.
So to wonder if he was there or not is super interesting because I want to believe that little girl knew something, that that little girl knew he, he was there. And if she's a, you know, a part of me and a spiritual part of me and there's some spiritual part of him and that she, she, despite, you know, all the anger that had been there, she just wanted to be there to comfort him.
Sarah: yeah she was there to comfort him, but I wonder if [00:42:00] she was there to let you know, like, to give you, to let you rest, like, I've got him. Was there any of that?
Dani: Yeah cause when I, Yeah, like was able to go to sleep that night. There was definitely a sense of comfort that that he's not alone,
So Sarah, I don't know. So then I don't know, like, was there not, you know, I don't, I don't know.
Sarah: And I think that maybe it's actually not as binary as we're trying. I think that's part of the problem is our brains only understand binary. And I don't think that's the way it works.
Dani: Yeah. You know, yeah. Yeah. And the boy you talk about being like, it's broken, like, yeah, it was broken. The body was done. Yeah. Yeah. What do we know about the essence? The spirit? Was it still, you know, in the body in there? Was it in the heart? Was it in the room? Was it in the, is it beyond something that we can even remotely begin to understand?
Sarah: Yeah. Is it always here? You know? Did you get in the bed [00:43:00] with him? Grown up body?
Dani: No, I didn't. I didn't.
It didn't really even cross my mind partly in the difficulty of our relationship, that would have felt weird. Logistically, you know, just the way the bed was, it actually would have been very difficult. And then of course, all the tubes and all of that. I rubbed his head, rubbed his hair, held his hand.
How about you with your mom?
Sarah: Yeah, I'm reflecting, I'm listening to you. So my experience was, so there's two pieces to this. So I did get in the bed with her it was about five days. So she fell on Friday and then she gave her organs on Wednesday. And so the whole process was, was that.
At some point I wanted to get in bed with her, but I thought, no, you can't, you can't. She's, this is a hospital bed. You know, I, There's all those tubes and stuff. And then, but the nurse we had that day knew her. It was my, it was one of my favorite nurses. And and she knew my mom and so I just asked her, I just said, can I get in bed with her?
And she said, Oh yeah. And she just kind of [00:44:00] scooted her over and fixed it so that I could. And and so I did, and I don't, and it wasn't for her. That was for me for sure. So I did have that moment and I'm so glad I did. And my, my partner took pictures of it. I knew I would want them and I, I just looked at 'em a few days ago and I am glad that I have an image of that experience 'cause I might not have even remembered it.
Such a dreamscape, the whole thing. And it was such a, such a beautiful moment and, I was able to do that a couple times with her. I think I did it the, the morning they took her, that they took her organs. I think I did it that morning. But, but the other thing I was gonna say is I wasn't worried about her being alone because I didn't think she was there.
Like, I wanted to be with her body. I wanted to be with people coming in and out. I wanted the ritual of going to the hospital.
But also just like, You know, as I say this, there was like a 90 percent [00:45:00] certainty. You know, when I had that moment that she wasn't going to make it, that was 90%. It's like, I wasn't going to not call EMS. I, I wanted to check my work. Like if I was wrong, that was great. And, and kind of the same thing with the hospital.
It was like, for the most part, I wasn't really worried about it. I didn't talk to her that much. I. Sort of tried to make myself And I didn't care and I I trust when I don't care and so That was weird. I was like, oh, she's fine. She's just sitting there like they're just keeping her body going. It was it's weird
Dani: Well, what was it like for you then to, to be in bed with her?
Sarah: Part of it was gratifying that I could ask for what I want and it was so easy to have. And then it was just warm and comforting. It was, I wanted to be with my mama's body. Like I wanted to be with my mom. I wasn't, she needs this. I didn't think she did. And [00:46:00] when she fell, I thought she needed it. I kept telling her I'm here.
I'm here. Help us on the way. I'm here. You know, I, I did have that sense then. You're okay. I've got you, you know, those kinds of things. But when I called into bed with her, that it wasn't, there was no sense that she needed it other than maybe she needed that experience of me being in bed with her or something.
I knew she was fine, but maybe she did need that,
union with me. I needed that with her. I just needed to, to curl up next to her body as long as I could, as much as I could. Yeah.
Dani: Yeah. There is something really, again, beautiful and sacred about that.
Sarah: Yeah. And I remember feeling like, not like it feels like her, doesn't smell like her, doesn't sound like her, doesn't look like her.
I just had to know it was her, you know?
Dani: Yeah.
Sarah: I just had to know it was her. How weird.
Dani: It is so weird. And to be, I mean, you're now living in this world [00:47:00] motherless, and I'm now living in this world fatherless.
Sarah: Yeah.
Dani: I had a friend of mine call it that, rite of passage not a, not one we want but yeah, like having to wrestle with what does it mean well I don't know if you're wrestling with it, at least for me, wrestling with what does it mean to live in this world now without a father?
Sarah: Oh yeah.
She was always, you know, in this, I imagine this wasn't your experience with your dad. My mom was always very safe for me. I always knew that she loved me no matter what. Didn't always knew that I could count on her. Like, I, there were some human foibles. She was as, you know, ADHD as I, but I always knew fundamentally that she loved me that she had me and I have a real sense that my dad loves me.
I don't have a sense that he doesn't, but it's not like that. And so to live in the physical realm without. Somebody on this [00:48:00] planet that loves me like that, that has paid that much attention to me. That's a little weird. Do you feel that like, like the absence of whatever your dad Whatever love or container he did have for you, actually, can I read
Dani: something about it?
It's actually answering that question. I wrote this back in July and as it was kind of reviewing some of my journals about what for this conversation, I came across this and I was like, Oh, like, and again, this felt very poignant to me. You know, so I, my dad From the time my parents divorced and he, a year after he married my now current stepmother and they have lived in the same house since I was 8 years old.
So I've, it's the same house, the same, like, that's the closest thing to like, a childhood home that I had had. But we, he also didn't like, no, our lives weren't super close or connected. So this is what I wrote that I think is answering your question. I wrote, [00:49:00] he was just always there in my thoughts. I think of Iowa.
And yes, there he is, that house. I didn't have to call or talk or anything. He was just there. He existed. His presence in a suspension I could access anytime if I wanted to. I often didn't want to, but I knew I could have. He and his energy always held some kind of presence for me. It may have been subconscious or maybe backburner when it was conscious.
But it was a little ball of energy, like in a snow globe that always existed in the back of my mind, settled over Iowa, able for me to enter anytime I wanted. It wasn't me, it wasn't my life, but it was always there and it was always contained.
Sarah: God, that's beautiful.
Dani: Thank
you. And again, didn't know it existed. He existed. I did not know that's how I felt until he died.
Sarah: Me
either. You take it for granted. I'm [00:50:00] about to go on a complete side road that I don't really want to go down, but I had a In January, I think my ex boyfriend died, and he was like, like, ex boyfriend from high school.
Like, I hadn't seen him since I was 20, and, but he was like, love of my life. I dreamt about him for 20 years, like, Person, you know, and I feel the absence of him existing. I hadn't talked to him or been in relationship with him or hope to be in relationship with him for a very long time. And he always existed.
It's, it's, thank you for giving shape to that experience.
Dani: Yeah. And then
it makes you think, who else in your life? That if they didn't exist, you'd feel the absence. Yeah. It's weird.
Sarah: It is. It's weird. What did you say about suspend? Can you find that sentence again?
Or that phrase? Suspended over Iowa? What did you [00:51:00] say?
Dani: He was just there. He existed his presence in a suspension that I could access. Yes. I wanted to,
Yeah, I knew I could call him anytime I could. I was always welcome. I could go there anytime. I could think of it anytime and know. What he have a good sense of what he's doing in this real world, right here, right now, probably watching football what he'd be doing right now, right? With his bourbon in his hand.
Right. I could access him. And that's obviously not there anymore.
Sarah: Yeah. What are we going to call this podcast? We're going to call it They Existed. They Existed. They Existed.
Dani: They Existed.
Sarah: Oh,
Dani: yeah. They
Sarah: Yeah. We'll hold that. We'll see. Yeah. That's close. I like it. Yeah. Thank you so much. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah.
Dani: It's going to be interesting to see where this goes for you.
Sarah: What's
going to happen next? Yeah.
Dani: What's going to happen next?
What is death and [00:52:00] dying?
How's that going to show up in our lives?
Sarah: I mean, yeah. Yeah. Fascinating. And it's
Dani: all, I mean, I know I'll see you, I'll see you around. Goodbye forever. But I do just want to say thank you for being willing to share your story. Like even if no one else ever heard this, but just to be able to share it with me and just holding you in so much just energy and peace as you navigate this, it's going to be a lifelong navigation.
And I just think,
Sarah: I think there's not an end to this one.
Dani: No, I don't think so.
Sarah: Oh, andI, you.U, thank you so much for being here and helping us give some, some form to this thing. Yeah. Okay.
Dani: Peace to you.
Sarah: And to you.
ABOUT DANI:
Dani W. Fake is a seasoned life coach and therapist based in Denver, specializing in grief and loss. Dani is deeply passionate about guiding individuals through their grief journey with compassion and support. In addition to her private coaching and therapy practice, Dani also applies her expertise to teaching and mentoring aspiring coaches who desire a credential with the International Coaching Federation (ICF). She is also passionate about Parts Work/Internal Family Systems and Inner Child work.
Timestamps And Topics
00:00 Grief and Initial Reactions
00:33 The Club of Loss
00:43 Unexpected Emotional Journeys
00:54 Finding Commonalities in Grief
01:44 Dani's Story
02:29 Understanding Grief
03:55 Sharing and Discovering
08:41 Path to Healing
09:49 Navigating Daily Life
11:01 Deep Impact of Grief
11:51 Moments of Vulnerability
13:58 Tenderness in Shared Struggles
15:58 Living with Loss
30:46 Reflecting and Looking Forward
29:03 Exploring Death's Impact
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