EPISODE 9: The Sacredness of the Dying Process with Dr. Martha Jo Atkins
Dr. Martha Jo Atkins is an expert in death, dying, and grief. I've admired her for years and even completed her program, 'Dying School.' We delve into the emotional and metaphysical aspects of the dying process, including the specific and subtle change in language used by those nearing death. Martha Jo shares her personal journey from her brother's death at 24 to her experiences with patients and families in the dying process. We also discuss the potential of ketamine therapy for those facing end-of-life and grief. This compassionate and insightful approach offers a unique perspective on death as a powerful and intimate experience.
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Sarah: [00:00:00] Okay, today we have Dr. Martha Jo Atkins. She has been a hero of mine for a really long time. I have been enamored with death and dying and that process for, I don't know, 18 or 19 years, probably since I was with my grandma during her active dying process and I was with her when she passed, and I found that experience to be transcendent and holy.
From there, I don't know, what do you say? Like, you get a, you get a taste of the dying. I got a taste of the dying and I, and I loved it. There's something, something really sacred and fascinating that happens around death. And I guess that makes sense. lit something up in me, and here I am dying process. And I have. God, it's so cool. Just the different things that she was the first person that I learned about the different phenomena that happens in the active dying process, the [00:01:00] metaphors and the images and just the experiences that a lot of people have across the board.
So she's the first person that taught me about that. And I've just been following her work ever since and got enough prerequisites, so to speak, that. It was time this year to join her program. She runs a program every year called, um, Dying School. And I recently completed that. And you'll hear, we talk about what kind of a student I was and what that experience was like.
And in that conversation, you'll really see a lot of elements about grief and processing this experience that I had never considered. Things like actually holding yourself back and showing up and showing up really fairly inconsistently and how that really is enough. Anyway, there's a lot of different things that we talk about.
We talk about what it's like to lose our mamas and other people that we love and lots of different elements of walking people I have never met anybody so [00:02:00] compassionate and grounded in this conversation. I don't know the, the world of death education. I've just never seen anybody that I admire more So I hope that you also love this conversation.
Enjoy.
Hi friends, this is your host, master coach and teacher Sarah Yost. You are listening to the About Death podcast, the show about living life on your own terms. Stick around if you want way more of what you want with way less anxiety.
Hi, welcome.
Martha Jo: Hi.
Sarah: Would you introduce yourself?
Martha Jo: My name is Martha Jo Atkins. live in San Antonio, Texas. I have a boxer puppy named Gertie.
Sarah: She's very cute.
Martha Jo: She is very cute. She is extra on the cuteness scale, for real. [00:03:00] I have sent her away for the afternoon so she will not bother us.
Sarah: Oh, that's sweet. I have two pooches and one cat around my feet so hopefully they won't bother us, but there's no guarantees.
So what's the work that you do in the world?
Martha Jo: I help people who are dying and help their families and help people grieving. And have just started working with ketamine, with all of those other things. Those, those things are coming together. I've done, I've done end of life and grief and loss work since I was 20.
And I'll be 55 in September. It's been a a long life of that.
Sarah: Did you know that's what you were going to spend your life doing?
Martha Jo: No, I didn't.
My, my oldest brother died when I was 24. I think I have spent much of my life trying to sort that out. Some of that [00:04:00] involved going to school and working with other people and my own therapy and working with my own grief and all those things.
And then people have died along the way as, as is want to happen when we are human. But it's good work. I like it. I like the I like the intimacy, the really fast bullshit that happens when you get in that space with somebody who can be vulnerable and and then I get to be vulnerable and it's, it's pretty cool.
Sarah: It is pretty cool. It's one of my favorite places to be. It's clear and clean and you're right. There's no bullshit. So have you sorted out your brother's death?
Martha Jo: I think I have. I think I think the next part of that was he died, let's see, he was 37. I think the next part that I didn't really think about for myself was that I was going to die someday too. Yeah. And just in the last several years, I've reckoned with that. I can't say that I'm happy that he left so [00:05:00] early and I certainly have learned a lot and deepened and have empathy in ways that I wouldn't have had.
I don't think had that not happened.
Sarah: And, are, are you using ketamine with people who are dying?
Martha Jo: That is the, that is the plan. I have not yet. The folks that I'm working with now are all, they've all been grievers and I I just finished up a training and I'm hopeful that we can get a program here in San Antonio with one of the the hospices.
So I've got, I've got a couple, a couple things to do in the next two or three weeks. And then I'm going to move in that direction and start talking to some folks and see what we can do.
Sarah: And what's the, what's the big deal about ketamine? What is it?.
Martha Jo: it's been around for 50 years. It's used in hospitals every day. It's safe. It's a really fast and effective way to decrease anxiety and [00:06:00] decrease suicidality. It's being used in hospital emergency departments now. Somebody comes in with suicide ideation or plans and there are hospitals that understand the research and they'll give people a ketamine infusion and if they have a good place to go home to, this is the next piece.
You can, you can shift the biology and then they've got to go back to where they were. So they've got to have some space. It's a way to connect to one's inner healer. All of the stuff in the way that happens when we're in our regular there's a, it's called the default mode network that is active in our brains and ketamine like this and ketamine lets it be like this so you can get in under it.
Connect with yourself. The medicine is a lubricant for
connection, connection to self, connection to others, and having a a holding after having integration, having somebody to connect with you and ground with you. And I just was with a [00:07:00] client this morning and there was a beautiful exchange that happened at the end that wouldn't have happened otherwise. Just softening and vulnerability and saying things aloud. She'd never been able to say loud before and having that held. And then the, the there's neuroplasticity that happens in the brain.
So there's a capacity to make new connections and practice. So you get to practice being vulnerable and you get to practice with I don't know, if you haven't walked, you want to start walking, you can go out and walk in the afternoon. Some people use it to learn a new language, which I find kind of fascinating.
Sarah: How is it different from psilocybin?
Martha Jo: Different. It affects different neurotransmitters in the brain. there's
psilocybin experiences can last six hours and ketamine will last if you about an hour, if you have IV or a a shot. If you have lozenges. You can get boosters. We can get boosters for other things too. Is it gentler? It's [00:08:00] different. It's just different. All of the psychedelics are different and affect different parts of our psyche. I am not an expert on any of that. We just, it's, it's useful. It's just useful.
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So what about the dying process? So we talked about the, the intimacy that happens in the no bullshit zone, but there are other ways to access that. So what is it about the dying process that fascinates you?
Martha Jo: There's a, there's a trajectory to the experience.
For somebody who has a a, let's say somebody who's on [00:09:00] hospice. They make the decision to go on hospice. And there are things that start to happen once that decision is made. And as you, as I sit with people and engage with them, there's there's the, the surface stuff, there's the stuff you say.
And then there's this soul language that ekes out every now and then, and as we get further and further into their process, it's much more soul language, and then it's also language. It's the metaphors and the, the throwaway statements that aren't really throwaway statements and it's watching a soul leave a body. And the movement of that and the sound of that, it's beautiful, it can be really hard, it can be really, really difficult,
but there's power in it, and humanity in it, and sweetness..
Sarah: Do you think that, or do you? Observe that people die the way that they live.
Martha Jo: I hear that a lot. [00:10:00] And, I don't know, maybe. I know of people who've struggled with their living and they've struggled with their dying. I have been with people who, are quite settled or seem quite settled, and then they get in their process and there's something something rises up in them
from a witness standpoint, looks like it's a little tricky. There's not anything that to do over here, other than. Was with a lady once, a lady, a woman who had really, really had a difficult life and she she struggled and that, that was one where I saw or heard or felt that phrase that you said, like she died. It's just, it's such a continuum. We're so, we're so unique and we're so human. So there's, there's both of those that work together in the process. It does make me want to take care of my business before I get on my [00:11:00] deathbed. I think Frank Ostaseski, I think he's the one who said it, that you can't, can't take care of a a lifetime of things on your deathbed. And I've, I've remembered that and like that.
Sarah: Yeah, that's a lot to ask.
Martha Jo: It really is. . what's the name of your book, Martha?
Signpost
of Dying.
Sarah: And what is that referring to?
Martha Jo: That is referring to the movements, sounds, language that happens along and along as people are moving into their active dying process. The the things that begin to say and want to go home or I need a suitcase or I need my luggage or I need a map language that's used and how the language changes. And there's some stories in there about people I've cared for. And
I used to look at dying as this thing that happened that I completely didn't understand. I wanted to understand Jim's death. I think that was part of it. And working in a hospital in my very early twenties, I witnessed death on the [00:12:00] floor. And then in the intensive care unit, which were two, two different experiences and then other deaths that have happened along the way.
And then doing research for my dissertation about deathbed visions and language of dying and all that stuff. And then sitting with my father while, while he did those things, I had researched I was equally fascinated and horrified as the thing was happening and and then he didn't die. And then he died later.
So we got to do it again. And in the, again, I could feel the difference. And also similarities of what had happened in 2013 or so when he didn't die. And it's different, even if you do death and dying work, it's different when you're sitting with your own family member because you know them and you're sitting there hour after hour, after hour, rather than being somebody who, who's coming in and out of a room.
It's a different experience. So I [00:13:00] watched all of that with, I guess, my, my researcher eyes and my teacher eyes. And, and then my daughter eyes when I couldn't get myself. Yeah. It's hard.
Sarah: it is hard. When you, when he went through this process the first time and then did not die, how long was it between those two periods?
Martha Jo: He had been,
gosh, I don't know. I bet it was three weeks. it may have been a little bit longer than that. He had multiple myeloma and his kidneys were failing and he needed to get blood transfusions and it was in and out of the hospital and he would get septic. He would get infections in his bladder and he would get septic and be in the hospital for a while and get better and it was just this thing that happens to, to it's just what happens sometimes.
It's in and out and in and out and in and out. It was a long slog in the hospital, three weeks
Sarah: That's a long slog. It can be a long [00:14:00] slog.
How did the, how did the language and, and those signposts, did they, did they just stop? Did he put away his suitcase? Is there any sort of reversal of any of those things?
Martha Jo: He didn't, he didn't remember. He was seeing. He was hearing people in the hall. Then he heard his mother in the hall. He wanted the suitcase from the room that was next door, which was the bathroom. He was in bookshelves in front of him, but the bookshelves were the bookshelves in his room at home.
And he didn't understand why this was here.
And you listen to that and you think, Gosh, they're really confused today. And as I've worked with people, those kinds of things are the things that people say when their body and their spirit are starting to detach. So I look at it not as crazy talk, but as there's this thing happening where their consciousness is changing and his consciousness was changing,
he
saw an [00:15:00] angel, that talked to him.
And he could relay that to us. He asked if we saw the angel and I said, we didn't. He said she was blue.
Sarah: And
Martha Jo: William Peters talks about a vision that people, some people have that is the way Noble described it. That is not uncommon. That all happened. And then my mother showed up and when those, important family members show up.
It's a different ballgame. And I, said to the doctor what was happening and I don't, I don't know that she was necessarily convinced, but she did change the Antibiotics and change them several times and the last time it finally kicked in and my brother's with my dad the next morning and he was back and he was bright eyed and he was clear and it's all together.
Where have you been, and dad said, traveling. It's like, wow, no recollection of any of the things. Which is okay. We, [00:16:00] we remembered and, I don't know, it was important. It was, whatever, whatever he was doing. Practicing? No. I don't know what he was doing.
Sarah: Have you ever seen, have you ever seen what the dying people see?
Martha Jo: No, I,
Sarah: or felt them or sensed them or anything.
Martha Jo: I had an experience. William, I'll mention him twice. William Peters talks about, teaches about shared crossings.
And it is shared crossings are those experiences where people at the bedside have an experience with the dying person. And sometimes that is traveling with them to a particular point and the person goes on and dies. Sometimes it's an experience of just being out of body with them. William tells a beautiful story about reading to a man at hospice in San Francisco.
And said it just in an instant, he and the man were out of body. At the ceiling, looking down on [00:17:00] themselves,
just grinning and grinning and grinning. William said he could hear himself reading and the guy was in the bed and it, whatever was happening down there was happening, but they were having an experience together. That was different. I had an experience with a man named Burn, where we were listening to music together. It was late, late at night and Burn couldn't couldn't walk. He got around in a wheelchair and he was in the bed and I was on a couch and the music, he turned the music up and then we. flew together. It was so peaceful and free. It was freedom. It was freedom. absolute freedom. And the song ended and I opened my eyes and looked at him and he opened his eyes and looked at me. It was, it was something we both knew. It was just phenomenal.
Sarah: Wow.
Martha Jo: I have not told that story very much because I, I didn't really get it. And I, I don't know that I I don't know that I needed [00:18:00] to, I but I do now. I mean, it's just, it's, it's connection.
It's kind of fun.
Sarah: How did that, , having that felt sense of freedom, has that changed your ability to access it?
Martha Jo: Great question. I can, When I'm, when I'm feeling well, when I have slept and eaten and take care of myself and done some of the things I need to do, I can remember times that felt really good and get a connection back to that for a moment. I don't know. I've been with a number of people at end of life since then, and I have not had that experience again.
I don't know. I don't know what it was. with him. Yeah, some people have them all the time. They have these shared experiences all the time. I feel so fortunate to just have had, had that one.
Sarah: This is before I took dying school with you and we can talk about dying school. I, I didn't know that was a thing, shared death experiences. It's not something that I hear people talk about.
Martha Jo: Raymond Moody, [00:19:00] who wrote Life After Loss. Mm hmm. Fearless Experiences, and I think that book came out in 76, so 45 years ago, almost 50 years ago. He's the one that started talking about this Probably 15 years ago or so, and the first one to write about it. And he said that about 10 percent of every audience he polled after he started talking about it would raise their hand and say that they had had something like this happen.
And often people didn't know what it was. Raymond tells a story about being at the, I think, I don't know, I remember he was dying but his family was around the bed and all of them had a, an experience that they eventually told each other about because they were all so weirded out about it. But it, it was the same thing happened to all of them. That's kind of amazing.
Sarah: It's pretty amazing.
Martha Jo: So with all of the, sadness and you're going to miss the person and maybe they're having trouble leaving and all of that happens, there's also this other thing, which is often [00:20:00] ineffable and
maybe for some people can have some hope in it in addition to the sadness and, and can hold, we can hold both of those.
Sarah: What do you think that grief is? Like, is it a feeling or a state?
Martha Jo: I'm trying to think about how I would think about my own grief, and I think I probably would say it's both of those. It has been both of those. How about for you?
Sarah: No, it's like a, it's like a way of being. It's not an emotion. It's, it's, how the emotions are within this, this whole suspended experience.
I, I always thought that grief was sadness. I always thought that's what people meant. I thought it was like extreme sadness. And even now, when I see people talk about grief or reference grief, I don't trust it. I just assume they're talking about sadness. And I don't know why I'm sort of locked in on that prejudice, [00:21:00] but I am.
But my experience is, is that, like, grief is, the way of making it through all of, it's all the emotions. It's the experience of being cellularly separated. I mean, it's, it's all of these weird things. It's very complex. And so everybody says that you never let go of the grief. Like, like that's pretty universal, that you always live with it, that you always live with the loss.
I may not be understanding. what they mean by that, but that seems of course I'm crying, that seems untenable to me. Yeah. I don't know how somebody could stand to live an entire life in the state that I am living in.
And one of the things that I found as a result of these podcast conversations is, I don't think grief, first of all, I don't think grief is what I thought it was.
That living without the people that I [00:22:00] love may also include experiencing joy without them. That it's, it's not just carrying that heaviness.
Martha Jo: That makes sense to me. .
Sarah: You've lost your mom and your dad and your brother and friends. And so what's it like for you now to live without your mom and dad and brother?
Martha Jo: Experience times where I miss one of them. I don't usually miss them all at the same time. And something will happen. You know, things happen in life, things to celebrate, things that are sad, and there's a part that longs for my mother, or there's a part that longs for Jim. Was just on the way home thinking about my friend Mark. And, you know, it's been a year and a half since he died. I don't, I don't know when I last thought of him, but for some reason in the car, it was probably a song and I didn't, I didn't cry and it would have been okay if I did, but I didn't today there, there [00:23:00] was a, just a feeling of,
it sure would have been great to have you longer. And as I spent time with my nephew a couple weeks ago, he's 34, about to be 35. His dad died, Jim died when, when John was four. And there are similarities in voice and laughter and gait.
Sarah: Yeah.
Martha Jo: That's clearly hereditary because it's been a really long time.
Those things used to make me cry. The first time I spent Thanksgiving with John and realized how much he was like Jim, I could barely keep myself together.
And this time it was really fun. And I, I could have conversations later with Jim about how. much fun it was to be with his son. I hope he was getting to see how he was and that may be, that may be a difference for me now that holding my heart, the conversations cause I do, I [00:24:00] do pop off every once in a while and have conversations with him and it's my need. After Jim died, it was, he, his was the, it really was the first important person I loved who died and. And he's there a moment and then he's not there the next, which you are well aware of. And I didn't know what to do with myself and I didn't know what to do with myself for a couple of years. I honest to God day 366 after he died.
I really thought you're going to have the year mark and you're going to step into the next day and it's going to feel better. And I didn't feel better the next day. And I was so mad, and I probably needed to be mad. and that second year is when I started to till some things and find some new ways of, of being and find support and, and I trust, I trust with the people I work with. I trust myself. I trust you that you're going to figure out what you need as you go along. Cause we do. And [00:25:00] I found people who had found a way to live with it. I, I heard your, the word untenable. I get that. I get that.
Sarah: Was his death prolonged or sudden?
Martha Jo: Yeah it was sudden. He died in his sleep and we got a phone call
and it's something I'll be curious of your thoughts about this. You live with the people you live with and love the people you love and then somebody dies and then everybody's in their own grief experience. And you get to experience people in ways you've not experienced them before.
That was mine. Did that happen for you?
Sarah: Well,
kind of, but my mom and I were a pretty solitary unit. I mean, my stepdad died several years ago, and I don't, well, I have a half brother, but he's not my mom's. And so it was my mom and I and my kids. Where that was our family. And so I experienced my, my children's and my relationship changed. I experienced them differently.
How [00:26:00] so?
Well, I found out later that, so I have a 17 and a 13 year old, and I found out later that my, my 17 year old, my daughter told my son that we need to be really nice to mom for a while. And they were, they were nicer and they weren't not nice before. I mean, we've, we've We've maintained a pretty, pretty good relationship, even though they're, they're teeny, we just don't have a lot of bullshit between us, and I'm always, I've always been very open with my emotions.
I'm incredibly emotional. I cry all the time, even when my mom didn't die and I laugh all the time. So there was this, I think maybe I'll tell you two stories about my son. So one time I was in the kitchen and something had happened and I was doubled over sobbing
Max came in the kitchen and scared me. So I was mid sob, screaming because he scared me, and then laughing because that's funny even if you don't want it to be. [00:27:00] And I don't know. That just was like, that's the way we interact, right? It's like, Oh, are you crying? Yeah. And then they just stop. And then I finish and we go on.
And so there's been more of that and more tenderness and then as they've, you know, had to figure it out, we've talked about things, you know, more intimately and more vulnerably and more deeply than we did before. And then also, I had this other experience with Max where I think it was either the night, so my mom, she fell one night and or fell one day and it was, it was like a five day process, I think.
So it was either the first night or the second night, I couldn't sleep. And so Max and I took this walk in the neighborhood, like two or three in the morning and, you know, that just had to be such a, Such a cool experience for a then 12 year old to walk the neighborhood and go sit at the art museum and talk about Grandma and talk about Spider Man and, [00:28:00] you know, we just, we just had lots of, all of us had lots of things like that.
You were pretty young, you were an adult but pretty young, and I imagine your parents were still, they weren't quite human yet to you, I assume. And when your brother died, what was it like to experience their grief?
Martha Jo: Was, I was sad for them, I was sad for our family, I was sad for my other brother. We all came together and then we had to go back to our lives. And
my mother talked about crying in the shower. She didn't cry in front of people, but she would, she'd cry in the shower and that made me sad. She needed to do that for whatever reason. And death of a child is a big deal.
Sarah: That's
a big deal.
What was it like to lose your mom?
Martha Jo: I started writing about it when she was diagnosed. She was diagnosed with breast cancer and went with her to the doctor and went with her to chemo and everything. And we laughed and tried to be helpful when I [00:29:00] didn't know what to do sometimes so you, you do, you do what you do. So I anticipated her loss, long before she left, and I think we said what we could say in the moment. In our goodbyes and she, one of the things she told me one day, she had metastasized brain tumors. She told me two things. One of them was, if I ever, if I ever say something mean to you or belittling or whatever. She said, remember, that's not me.
Sarah: Aw, that's sweet.
Martha Jo: Yeah, it really was. And then just a little bit before she lost her ability to talk, she said, you've been a good daughter all except for that time in eighth grade. And then she laughed and laughed.
Funniest joke. So my mother was not a demonstrative. Tell you, she loves you huggy touchy feely mom. She was not all that. And she let me care for her. I think I wanted to [00:30:00] connect with her so badly. And, and in her illness, I was able to connect with her in ways that I, I hadn't ever been able to before
and cried a lot before she left. And I don't, I don't remember crying so much after, I think I, I think I did a lot of. anticipatory grieving and mourning before,
and that I shifted my focus to my dad. I don't know. It's different. It's different without your mom on the planet.
Sarah: It is. Is she somebody that you relied on and turned to when she was alive?
Martha Jo: It's that thing of somebody who's known you forever and loves you anyway. And
you know, I'd, I'd call her and tell her stories about work and
We didn't talk about feelings much, so we, we connected where we could,
both pretty introverted.
Sarah: How long did your dad live after she died?
Martha Jo: 10 years.
Sarah: And how did that change your relationship with him?
Martha Jo: He needed me, he needed my brother in, in different ways, and he
got, he is, is ensconced in a [00:31:00] retirement community, and he really made an effort to mentally make that his home probably the first month that this was this was his home now. So, watching him shift out of 50 plus years of marriage into this retirement home, Making new friends, you know, doing what he, doing what he wanted to do and he, he missed her and he also was, he had his own life that he created anew.
He had a dream about her that she, she and he were looking for each other but they didn't have flashlights so they couldn't find each other.
Sarah: Oh, wow.
Martha Jo: Pretty interesting dream. It's pretty soon after she died.
Sarah: Are flashlights? one thing that people talk about?,
Martha Jo: I don't remember that I've heard about flashlights much. I
Sarah: ask because my partner's mom and stepdad both died recently and during the major, during the process of his mom dying, there was a lot of talk about [00:32:00] flashlights and his His stepdad hid them all around and then was convinced that people took his flashlight and Was always looking for his flashlight and it was a really important tool I don't know if that was just something that he fixated on or if that was gonna help him find his way
Martha Jo: One or the other.
Sarah: One or all of the above. So I just finished dying school with you. And what made you put that together?
Martha Jo: Oh, I always wanted to teach at a university level end of life class, and I taught at, I was an adjunct professor at a college here in town for about a year, and decided I wanted to do it on my own, rather than be in a, in that kind of environment. A little bit more freedom. So I just did it. I didn't really think about it very much and I, I I did it as an experiment. I think everything all of them have been an experiment. And it's worked out.
It's, every year it's [00:33:00] different and I'm going to say better only because there's a deepening that happens from class to class. Thank you. Read about a professor one time who did a he did a thing with each of his students before class started where he would imagine them coming and sitting in front of him. He would have a conversation with them, tell them what the class was going to be about, and at the end say, if this is not the kind of class that fits you you're free to go.
Please figure out how not to come, and otherwise we'd love to, I'd love to have you in class. He did that with every student. And he said right up until the day class started, people would come and go and come and go. And each time he taught the class, which I think was once a year, he said the class would come in and they would get as far as they got by the end of the semester.
The next group would come in and that next group inevitably would be where the last group left off. And that's what's happened with D School. This turn and turn and turn of, of people who come and their self [00:34:00] awareness and ability to question and hold uncertainty and hold vulnerability and in every class we've had people who are brand new grievers or somebody has died during class or somebody is dying during class and it's powerful. It always is. Every class is. It's different and the energies, it's just powerful and I love it. I really love it.
Sarah: Me too, it was a really beautiful experience. You know, I really wanted to, you know, if you ever doubted that you, anyway, if, if you ever questioned the power of timing last year, I really, really wanted to do it and I just couldn't bring myself to do it.
Like, I just couldn't justify. the time and money and energy, but I really wanted to do it. And so I just, so I didn't. And then this time, I think my mom [00:35:00] died right before you launched it. And right before you announced it, and I knew this was, this was the time. I guess I had my prerequisites in, and it was, it was perfect timing.
And I look back and I think, God, what if I had forced it last time? I probably wouldn't have shown up is what would have happened. It just wouldn't have, it would not have been the experience for me that it was this time.
Martha Jo: Yeah, it, it was so I could feel you on the screen and I don't it's just how I sense people. There's the, there's the picture of them, but there's also the experience of them on the zoom. And sometimes you were kind of this way and sometimes you were flat, but you were always there. And sometimes you were up looking and I knew what had happened and
and there was always a gentle holding.
Sarah: I
Martha Jo: appreciate that.
And I was always excited, excited is the [00:36:00] right word, excited is the right word, when you could say a little bit and it was just a little tiny bit at the beginning and then you were able to open a little more and a little more. I understand, you know, we're, we're there to talk about death and dying and everybody who shows up has their own grief experiences that get, get turned over when they're in the class.
It's just part of it.
It's a, astounding and beautiful thing to me when people show up like you showed up. It just, it adds a layer of, it adds a layer of love. This is when I wish I knew all the Eskimo words for love. There's so many different kinds of love, but it's, I'm just, I was glad you were there.
Sarah: Thank you. Yeah, there were some times when I, well, I rarely thought that I should show up more, but sometimes I wished that I could, you know, I think I knew what I was missing, but I also just trusted that whatever I could do was the right
experience [00:37:00] for me to create.
Martha Jo: Exactly.
Sarah: That's an interesting aspect of grief as my limitations and holding holding myself back from, doing shit that I was once able to do, or that even I wish I could do. That's an interesting aspect of grief, that is way beyond just feeling sad. It's tending to your capacity.
Martha Jo: Yeah. So do you feel your capacity today? Like, how do you feel into it and what are its parameters?
Sarah: Well, there's this tension between like, there's this
pretty heavy part that kind of can't think and problem solve and stuff. And then there's this part of me that, misses my brain. And so it's like, there's a part of me that's like, well, let's just blah, blah, blah. And I can kind of see it. And I'm like, if you just quit complaining, we could probably do it, you know?
and [00:38:00] I think there, there is a time for that. Like, how about you just quit bitching and we just go do the thing? Like, I think that's appropriate sometimes. So there's this part of me that's like, I mean, we could, it's not technically that hard. And then the rest of me is like you know, so, so I don't know.
So there's like a real holding back and I have, I'm grateful that I have that skill. I've developed that since perimenopause. I've developed that since my hormones went wonky. Sometimes I can and sometimes I can't and I try to hold myself back so I don't create a big mess for myself or a big shame spiral on the other side.
I did make a huge mess for myself and it's one I've been living with for about six months. So I, I wasn't sleeping well and I wanted to sleep and I didn't like my bed situation and I fixate and I had some energy like for a few days or something and I fixated on getting a new bed.
And I got it. And I ended, I ended up getting like a couple new [00:39:00] beds. And then I just completely ran out of steam, just completely ran out of steam. And so my mattress, My new mattress has been sitting in my living room for six months and killed a couple cacti and and every time I, I just like it, the, the fixing of it was so many steps.
I just couldn't. And then I finally I finally just, it's actually still in my living room, but it's only the last piece. I finally put all the pieces together of this bed drama, and I started it on Friday, and I didn't have a bed in my room as part of it, so I stayed with my partner overnight, and then I got sick, and I got so sick over the weekend, and I couldn't go home because I didn't have a bed.
And so I've just been living in this, it's just such a good example of me writing a check that my spirit couldn't cash. I wanted a new bed. I thought, how hard is it to get a new bed? It's really fucking hard to get a new bed. There's just a lot of moving pieces. So the one mattress is still in my living room.
I do have a [00:40:00] mattress in my bedroom. I was finally able to go home. So anyway, that's a very long answer to how do I tend to my capacity. I try to be really conservative and I don't always make it.
Martha Jo: Yeah. And you did as much as you could do. And when you have capacity again, you, you will shift that and it will be right on time.
Sarah: It will be.
Martha Jo: It will be. Yeah.
Sarah: Is there anything we missed?
Martha Jo: I don't think so.
Sarah: And where can people find you?
Martha Jo: At MarthaJoAtkins. com.
Sarah: Thank you.
Martha Jo: Thank you.
Sarah: Thanks for listening to About Death, the podcast about living life on your own terms. Would you help me get our guest stories into the hands of people who need to hear them? One thing you can do is think about who you know who would love this episode. Send it to them or leave a rating and review, especially if it's a good one.
And if you want community and coaching, go to sarahyos. com to get [00:41:00] started. See you next time.
ABOUT MARTHA JO ATKINS
I am a doctoral level end-of-life licensed professional counselor and counselor supervisor (LPC-S), coach, consultant, speaker, and author. I love all dogs but most especially boxers. (That’s Gertie.) Dr. Pepper is my drink of choice. I worked with my first dying patient, a 3 y/o, when I was 22 years old. For thirty two years now, I’ve come alongside grieving and bereaved children and families + people at end-of-life and the ones who love them.
Connect with Martha Jo at www.marthajoatkins.com
Timestamps And Topics
00:00 Introduction to Dr. Martha Jo Atkins
02:17 Host Introduction and Podcast Overview
02:45 Meet Dr. Martha Jo Atkins
03:12 Exploring the Work of End-of-Life Care
03:45 Personal Journey and Grief
05:11 The Role of Ketamine in Therapy
08:37 Understanding the Dying Process
16:08 Shared Death Experiences
20:12 Exploring the Nature of Grief
21:57 Living Without Loved Ones
23:05 Memories and Reflections
24:04 Navigating Personal Grief
25:20 Family Dynamics and Grief
28:44 Anticipatory Grief and Parental Loss
32:22 Teaching About Death
37:03 Personal Capacity and Grief
40:23 Conclusion and Final Thoughts
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