EPISODE 11: Meditating on Mortality, Psychedelics, and Loving Being Alive with Ana Verzone
Ana Verzone, a former nurse midwife and psychiatric nurse practitioner, discusses her journey from nurse midwifery to psychiatric nursing, coaching, and working with entheogens. We trace her journey to understanding death, including her Buddhist practice of contemplating mortality, her experiences with cancer, and her work as a death doula. We discuss the roles of elders in society, cultural approaches to death, and the use of psychoactive substances for spiritual growth and managing end-of-life anxiety. The conversation also touches on personal reflections about death and how acknowledging mortality can lead to a fuller, more present life.
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Ana:
Hey, so I'm Ana Verzone . I kind of have tried to figure out what it is I do. And I think the best thing I've come up with is soul midwife. I was a nurse midwife for over a decade and caught like over a thousand babies. And what I found was as I transitioned into being a psychiatric nurse practitioner and coaching and working with entheogens.
And really being fascinated with the benefit of certain entheogens with end of life anxiety that I found that what I was doing was very similar to midwifing, actually, but it was just on this other other spectrum. So I also have been a death doula and have been very interested in the way modern industrialized society is framing death or not framing death and trying to be a really big advocate also just for a rebirth of of what death looks like.
Yeah.
Sarah:
Okay, first of all, tell us what's an entheogen
Oh entheogens. So, you know, some people have different definitions. Some people consider them only as plants. But, you know, the definition I work with is a psychoactive substance with, used with the intention for spiritual growth or insight. Yeah. Mm hmm.
So often, often they're plant medicines like you know, ones that more people are maybe aware of are things like tobacco has been used ceremonially and can alter states. You know cacao has been used ceremonially and can alter states. And then we get also more into the classical psychedelics like psilocybin or ayahuasca or you know, even cannabis can be considered an entheogen.
And, you know, some people would probably not classify things like ketamine or MDMA or LSD in there because they're thinking of it more as plant medicines. But if we're looking at it for what's the intention and if that intention is spiritual growth or insight, I feel like it all goes. Good. Do you do you work with all different kinds or do you have one?
Yeah, so maybe I should preface this with nothing is federally legal right now in terms of many of these, not I shouldn't say nothing, but many of the things I mentioned are not federally legal. So anything I'm mentioning here is in the context of either legal use because of the country it's done in or the area it's done in or for educational purposes or harm reduction because federally, you know, even though some states have, for example, legalized cannabis or decriminalized psilocybin and things like that federally, the, the legislation is still not changed and hopefully that will change.
But yeah, so what was your question again?
Sarah:
I don't remember. Now my dog is going crazy. And so I'm also a little distracted because I want that to stop. So I don't know what's going on. Hang on. What's going on here, George? George is my my mom's dog and he's a super piece of work. Anyway, I guess we'll just see.Ana:
Oh, I remember you were asking me if I use them all and I can't really yeah, let's not Yeah, if you'd like to work. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so I I would just say, you know We can leave that question in there, but I I think the way I would answer that, you know Definitely the disclaimer should be in there for anything we're talking about.
So leave that in there. Yeah, and you you know, I I'm learning and growing and trying to increase my skillfulness around awareness of cultural appropriation around certain practices. Like for example, I personally don't you know, offer ayahuasca in countries where it's legal. For me, I try to leave many indigenous substances or where the use is traditionally more in indigenous cultures for those cultures so they can benefit financially from the increased use and, you know, psychedelic tourism and, and things like that.
So you know, I, it. And even in states where they're trying to decriminalize certain plants, there's been requests from, you know, many, for example, Native American groups that are saying, please do not decriminalize peyote, for example, right? Because it's becoming overused now that, you know, You know, everybody's thinking that, oh, we should just use all this stuff all the time, and it's becoming over harvested, you know, with Bufo and the toads, there's issues with that.
And so I think we have to be really mindful, but, you know, that that's a whole different discussion. But, but, but in terms of what I like to work with, you know, you know, things that grow where, where I'm at in terms of, you know, in certain countries, psilocybin is legal in Oregon. I'm a licensed facilitator in Oregon.
And so there psilocybin can be used in certain contexts. Yeah. I've also, used cannabis, but not you know, with clients, but usually with end of life anxiety, the research really supports psilocybin. And I did my post doctorate at Johns Hopkins University, and that's where a lot of that research came out with Roland Griffiths.
Sarah:
So first of all, end of life anxiety, does it also, do you also work with family members or just, just the person who's dying?Ana:
Yeah. You know, in my death doula training. It was really a systems approach, right? Like the, the primary person is definitely the, the patient, but the real containers also the family members.
But with end of life anxiety and, and entheogens, it's just the patient. However, I will say I'm a huge advocate of preparation and integration because if someone's in a sort of unsupportive environment before or after any benefits gained are kind of hard to sustain often. And so. I feel like ideally there's an awareness, but I do not, you know, work with, in my current offerings, I don't work with entire families because I'm not doing just death doula work but a death doula usually does meet with the family members.
Sarah:
And so what is turning you on right now about the work that you're doing? What are you into now?Yeah, I think, you know, in terms of wanting to bring more awareness to how we think about death and how we. live with it. Really, so first of all, I have a, a long history of Buddhist practice since my teenage years and I have a podcast called Rebel Buddhist and in it, you know, I have one on death And anxiety or end of life anxiety.
And one of the things I mentioned is that in my spiritual practice, like every day we think about death, that's part of the spiritual practice with the intention that when we meditate that we will die and we don't know when that's like one of the only things we know for sure in this world that we live life with much more integrity and in much more alignment if we have that awareness, right?
Like if we had that awareness that I'm gonna die and I don't know when, like would we hold on to those stupid grudges? Would we treat people in a certain way if we knew we might not ever see them again? If like, like how would we live and how would we show up? And so I just found real value in that myself meditating on death every day, not just death, but like my death and my impermanence.
And then kind of with over the decades because now I'm 50, right? It's like over the decades, I'm seeing there's not a lot of cultural wisdom around death and really wanting to Help cultivate true elders in our community that have the wisdom around these things that create a lot of anxiety for people.
You know, I feel like as people get older, if they're not productive in a work sense, our society discards them. But what we're missing is when we Expect our elders to gain true wisdom over their lifetime and our holders of wisdom, such as like, Oh, how do we teach about death? And how can we be with death?
And what happens when someone or another being dies or when parts of the earth are scorched? And, you know, how do we grieve? I feel like that's really a place where. as we age, we can give back to our people and be valuable members of our communities and of society. And really wanting to introduce a lot of concepts that modern industrialized society kind of pushes aside so that we have healthier communities.
You know, it used to be like, Oh, I need some advice. I'm going to go ask my grandma or grandpa. And it's like, nowadays it's like, Oh, they're really sweet and they're really good bakers and they're really good with the kids, but it's not like we often go to elders for wisdom anymore. And part of that is we're taught that that's not a thing anymore.
And part of it is we're not really growing wise elders in, in many ways, you know, we're sort of like that. That's my opinion, at least like we're not Surrounded by elders who, like, carry wisdom of, you know, our interconnectedness to the world around us, to the people around us. How to deal with complex social situations.
Like, in many traditional cultures, that's why you ask the elders, because you acknowledge they know something I don't. And these days, it's like, Oh, they don't know because they're just old and they're not hip to the times and they don't know how to use an iPad or whatever. And there's this dismissal of the wisdom like.
You know, maybe a lot of things could have been prevented if we listened to the wisdom of elders, you know, a long time ago when they saw certain things happening, just because we can doesn't mean we should. And that's when the wisdom of elders would come in and that pushed aside with colonialism, especially in capitalism and modernity and industrial revolution and all of that.
And so you said that that you've Yeah, I in 2003, I was diagnosed with renal cell carcinoma, which has a 5 percent 5 year survival rate, which means only 5 percent of people live 5 years or longer. And I was very lucky because. It was found very early and if I'd waited till I had symptoms usually by then the tumors are quite large, but it was found incidentally, which I think divine intervention, if we, if that's, which is a whole other story.
And then five years after that I was diagnosed with melanoma. That was not just, you know, surface, we'll just cut it out type of melanoma, like there you know, it was deeper than that and it wasn't sun related, you know, there's not all melanomas are related to, to sunburns and whatnot. So, yeah, I was like, just when Oh, I'm five years out.
This is great. Another diagnosis. And so I had to have that monitor and I'm still monitored for both of those regularly. But thank, thank goodness I've been healthy. Yeah. And were you in the Buddhist practice of meditating on your death then? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Since I was 19. Vajrapani Institute, that was the first place.
I just wanted to learn to meditate and everywhere I went, the Transcendental Meditation Centers were like, it's 1, 500 for this level one course or something. And I was like, what? And then I found, I was at UCSC for undergrad and then I found Vajrapani Institute, which is the Tibetan Buddhist place. Yeah.
And so in the Tibetan Buddhist tradition, that's one of the, in the Lam Rim, it's one of the first meditations is, is on death. Yeah. And so, I thought about my death a lot before then, but you know, when it actually becomes that real, there's a lot that you're like, Oh shit, maybe my practice isn't as strong as I thought it was.
like you start questioning, right? I remember too, when my mom died, I was talking to my brother in law who's a Zen Buddhist chaplain. And I was like, Whoa, I'm like totally thrown here. Like everything I thought I knew and understood about death for some reason, it's just being rocked right now. And like, what do I do with this?
You know? And yeah, so I, I think it's very common and not, it doesn't mean that your practice isn't strong, but this is why we practice because if I'd never. done that. I think it would have been even more scary. I remember when my practice was quite strong. My, when my dad died, it actually was a lot smoother internally for me.
Deep grief, obviously grief, I think is healthy and expected, but it wasn't as tumultuous as when my mom died and I had a toddler and wasn't meditating and wasn't sleeping. And it was like, yeah, yeah, there, there was a lot of factors in there. Were the, was the nature of his death very different from your mom's?
In a way my dad had actually been diagnosed with cancer, was in hospice. I was by him bedside. He was going. And then one day they called me and they're like, he's up, he's demanding to be released, he's got a bunch of energy, and they like re scanned him and his cancer was gone so that was weird. And then he lived another two years, and then it recurred his death was, yeah, his death was hard for me because, well, they, they both were, not just because they're parents, but I'm a fricking bitch.
trained death doula, and I wasn't at either of their bedsides. My dad I'd been at his bedside like almost two weeks, and then he started eating again. And I just started this new job, and the nurse was like, This could, he could live another several weeks because he's eating again and drinking again.
And and I was like, what should I do? And I was like, I guess I'll go back to work just for a few days to like check in and then I'll come back. It was like a five hour drive from where my work was. And then he died while I was back at work, like three days later. So pissed. It's like, I should have stayed.
And then my mom's, I was. In Morocco, finishing my doctorate degree, I was going to do my presentation online. My doctoral degree of the, my project was in Nepal. And so I was in Morocco at that time of year and I was going to do the, my final presentation on it and finish it up. And I found out on Facebook that my mom had died because AT& T wasn't forwarding, right?
Maybe I should edit out AT& T, but AT& T, I had called and said, are you sure that my number's forwarding to this? And they said, yes. And I said, can you test it? And they said, yes, but my calls were not getting forwarded to my phone. So I got a message on Facebook. I'm so sorry to hear about your mom. She was so important to our family.
And I was like, what? So that was a shock because I wasn't ready. However, I will say that. At that time, I was having a practice where every day on Facebook, I was posting today is a good day to die because, because I was really wanting to believe this and know this and practice it. And I put today's a good day to die because I called my mom and I talked to her and I'm in Morocco with my family and it's beautiful out and I'm finishing up my doctorate and.
It would be okay if I went. And then but I, I just wanted to mention that if I don't, if I had not had that practice of every day, like what would make today a good day to die? Yeah, there's certain things that maybe I wouldn't have been like, okay, like paying more attention when I was on a call with her and being more present and, you know, like, spending a little bit more time with her on the call, you know, and FaceTiming instead of just audio.
Like, so those, those were those things I did that I was grateful, like, wow, even though I missed a lot of the action. the day she died. I actually talked to her the day she died. Yeah. It was that morning. I was like, let's call grandma. And she was up at like one in the morning, probably because she was, you know, our bodies do that when we're about to die.
There's anxiety and stress. She's like, I don't know why I'm having trouble sleeping. And I'm like, oh, I'm so glad you answered the phone. So we got to talk to her and then she died within 24 hours. She slipped and fell probably from a cardiac thing and then, yeah, then she had a heart attack. Yeah, so I at least spoke to her that day and I'm not sure if I didn't have that awareness that death can happen at any moment to anyone.
Like, that I would have gone as out of my way sometimes to reach out to her. Right? So I'm grateful. I'm grateful that I had that. Yeah. Did you feel like your relationship with her was, was complete when she? Definitely not. But I had actually made peace with that because not, not peace. Let me just say it still fucked me up.
But but I knew I like, I remember having this awareness. I was doing my death meditation once and I was thinking about her and how she was getting more frail. And She'd kind of backslid on some of the progress we made, like she had abused me as a kid physically and verbally and, you know apologized for it, had said she would do things differently if she'd known more, and we were getting so close, and then I had my kid, and I, and I was being more irritable with her because She'd always said, once you have a kid, you'll understand.
And I had my kid, I was like, I can't imagine like beating her the way that I was, and so it was just bringing up some stuff and I was being irritable towards my mom. She's like, why are you being irritable towards me? And I'm like, I think it's just It's bringing up some stuff for me like our past because now I do have a kid and I'm not feeling some of those things and then she was like, I never beat you.
And I was like, what? Like we had just made so much progress. And then she went into denial about it. And I, you know, in hindsight, I think there was a little bit of maybe, I don't know, some like vascular dementia or something going on because it was just odd. It was just odd that she would say that, but it still will.
created a distance in our relationship and I remember just being like, I didn't have much capacity, you know, I had postpartum depression, sleep deprived, doing mostly solo parenting, even though I'm married and was just like, I think she's going to die without us fixing this or healing this. And I had to make peace with that, like, you know what, that's okay though, because we're both doing our best and we both know we love each other.
There's just been a lot of pain. And if she dies and this is not healed, I need to really be at peace with that. Because at least my belief system is once we do die I don't believe we're floating around like, stressing out about what we wish we'd done. I don't feel like there's a whole bunch of regret in the, in the afterlife per se.
It's more about the people hanging out behind. And so, yeah. Yeah. So it was more complicated and I mean, whatever. I think my relationship with my dad was complicated too, but I think when we have a complicated relationship and someone dies, it does make it a bit more complex, a bit more fraught at times.
So. Yeah.And
Sarah:
what was it like do you, did you feel like your relationship with your dad was complete, even though it was complicated? What was that like?
Ana:I did. I just wish I was there. Yeah. Like I was walking out and he said, I'm afraid to die. And then I said, well, remember we talked about it, how it's natural.
And I said, I'll be back. I'll be right back. You know, I'm just going for a few days. But part of me. Yeah. You know, one of the ways I've made peace with it is, I think he was hanging on because I was there. Yeah. And that happens quite often, I think, where someone's sitting bedside and then they step out to take a phone call or step out to go get groceries and then that's when the person passes and it's like, ah.
So I, I think while it is so beautiful if we can be bedside holding hands and being there. Yeah. Sometimes that's not what people need to actually let go in their final days, depending on the person or in their final breaths, depending on the person. Yeah. So, you know, I think a big part of death for me is like, well, it was meant to happen because it did in whatever way it did.
And, you know, we live with the stories we tell about something. So. You know, my story was, well, that's, that's what he needed. He knew, like, one of my most beautiful moments was I was lying in bed with him just a couple of days previously and he said, you are my best creation. Oh, it makes me cry just thinking about it.
And it's like, those moments are so important to remember. Even if we can't be there just for like final breath, so I know that there's people that kind of wish, you know Oh, I wish I was there and yeah, I get it cuz I couldn't even be there for both of my parents So that was one thing. I really really wanted I was like I am good at this And I'm their daughter this is amazing I get to be there for them and it was like ah Ah I can't believe it.
Yeah. So interesting. Yeah. I know. I always thought that would be my experience with my mom, whether I'd be there at the last moment. I mean, I for sure thought I'd be doing the vigil for sure that I'd be, I thought she'd get, she had diabetes. I thought she'd get, thought she'd stroke out or, you know, get sick somehow.
And yeah, I'd care for her and be at the bedside for a long time. I mean, I just always figured that's what it would be.
Sarah:
Why do you think people need to be alone for that last moment? Like, was he somebody that, that had that private bit? Like, I don't know, like, like when I suffer, I reach out for a human, not all of them, I don't like all the humans, but I like the one human, you know, to hold my hand.
But like my partner, I imagine will. You know, when he suffers, he turns in. He doesn't turn toward a person, he turns inside. I just wonder, I just wonder about that at the end. Was your dad like that? Was he, yeah, what was he like when he suffered? People must have different reasons.
Ana:
Like, because they told me that they asked him, do you want me to call your wife?
And he said no. So I think maybe part of it is they don't want us to suffer or hear our suffering. I mean, my, my mom's Filipino. We are very vocal when people die, like we're like throw the bodies on the coffin type of, you know, like it's very dramatic, but it's, I think it's very healing because you get to fully express it.
But yeah, I could see how he was like that. He doesn't want to hear that as he's dying and all of that. Maybe that's one theory. But the other is they're also hanging on for us sometimes. The fight is hard, like to stay and to go like the choosing. And then I think sometimes it's easier to go when you don't have someone you love so much, like right next to you.
And you're kind of hanging on in there, even though we're saying like, it's okay for you to go. It's okay for you to go. Like my dad didn't want to. He's a little bulldog. Yeah. He's like, I got kicked out of hospice, man. Yeah. Did he think he was going to do that again? The next time? I don't think so. Yeah. Huh.
Sarah:
are there differences between helping someone transition to the other side and helping someone transition to the other side spiritually? Absolutely.
You mean like in the physical passing and the spiritual passing, or do you mean? I don't know what I mean. Like, like it's let me let me think about about how to talk about it because to me it seems obvious that that that walking someone into the world and walking someone out and then also what we do with people spiritually that it's all the same patterning.
So I don't know that I have a question. Yeah, I mean, if we're comparing birth and death I think they're so similar. Cause you're with people during, I think the most, I want to use the word holy. I know that's activating for some people, but it's so holy. It's so holy to have a baby come out and you're the first face it sees, it opens its little eyes.
And, you know, I remember as a nurse midwife, I worked often in hospitals which I would love to be a home birth midwife or whatever, but I also couldn't 24 seven. Yeah. Yeah. So I just had to make some choices there, but I tried to do my best to bring the home environment and Advocacy for the mothers and the babies and the families in the hospital and I just remember one time there was like these this like action film on the TV and like people were like Arguing and talking smack about the dad that wasn't there And I was just like, hello, there's a miracle.
I mean, I said this literally, I was tired, not in the mood. I was like, hello, there is a miracle happening here. Can we please turn off the TV? Let's stop swearing and talking like this about this baby's dad. And can we just focus on the miracle that's happening right now? And people were like, Oh shit. Like, but it was like, what is this?
That there's a baby coming out and this is what's happening? Like what? And interestingly, I know in the Philippines, one of the phrases for being pregnant is one foot in the grave cause I think we've lost also an awareness of many women used to die in childbirth and like even though there's many women who do it naturally, beautifully, there was a very acute awareness in many traditional cultures of how risky it was, how holy and beautiful and risky it was.
And. There's this attentiveness and sacredness around this moment, like, may everything please go well, right? And I think we lose, like, sight of that often these days. And so and then people are so afraid often in birth, even though they've practiced and done the best, you know, with their classes and with their own internal preparations for reframing, you know, the surges, you know, if they don't want to call it contractions or whatever it is, like it can be really scary.
And as a midwife, I was there just, you know, they would always say, Oh, thank you so much. But I'm like, you're the one like, I'm just here reminding you of your power and your strength and helping. And It's the same, I think, with death. It's that same, like, reassurance of, I know that this could be scary right now and I'm doing my best to create a holy environment for this transition and to educate the families and whoever's in the room about how to best do that, right?
And trying, ideally, to find out ahead of time. What they want who they want in the room and all of that and it can be so Beautiful like a good death is so beautiful and so sacred. Yeah Yeah, a good. Yeah,
but increasingly that's a luxury almost right like people move far away from their Families these days and you know There's not the wisdom around death or the comfort around death and many of us and yeah You And in the medicalized system, you know, this fear of like, we got it, like the goal of staying alive as long as possible, whatever costs.
Yeah, and that makes a peaceful, present death very challenging. It does.
Sarah:
Did you you don't currently do death doula work, correct?
Ana:
I do not work with private clients for just doing death doula work, where they can like call me and ask me to be bedside. Yeah. But I do, do pretty much. all the other aspects of it integrated into my programs, right? Like the, the preparation, the, the planning, the you know, the, the way I structure it is so I have, I've revamped it.
So I have a new program coming up in the fall, but it's around, you know, what if we only had a few months to live? And what, what would we do? And so part of that is logistics, right? And death doulas help with that. Like, okay, what do you want? Music, candles, incense, like no incense. What people do you want there?
What kind of bed do you want? Do you want blankets? Where do you want to be? Like all those legit. Do you have your will? Do you have your advanced directive? All those kinds of things. And though a big, the way I was trained as a death doula was, you know, if this person has a few months, like, let's also talk about all the aspects of our life.
And how can we feel complete with that as best possible, right? Like, what are the conversations we need to have? What are the things we need to let go of? And so, yeah So, so in that sense, I've integrated a lot of death doula work into my programs. Even if someone's not dying, I really feel like this is actually what we need to think about.
Like, better now than when you're actually dying. You can always edit it. I don't know what happens, but, but to do this work ahead of time is so uncomfortable for many people. Like, a lot of people come to me with end of life anxiety or existential anxiety, even if they don't have a terminal diagnosis, you know, and with the entheogens.
It can be so potent, right? It's like, oh, okay, now they're not afraid of dying anymore. Now they're afraid of the actual, like, pain or suffering that might be there. Or, you know, who they might be leaving behind and what they wish that they had told them. And then that's the work we do around that. Yeah.
Sarah:
I've noticed as my, so when I think about my death, which I do a lot, Since I had kids, my fear was for them to be motherless. Like, I don't, I think on a lot of levels, I'm, I'm not, I know that at some level, I'm sure I'm afraid of death, but, but at most levels, like I'm fine with dying. It sounds great. I don't really want to send my kids be motherless that, that is my fear.
And as I don't know, as my, so my mom died and I, and as I've thought about what it is to, to have been mothered and to live in the world without a mother, that is partly more acute, but also they are, more grown up and more able to take care of themselves.
Just the nature of like, my fear around death changes as, as the systems around me change. And as the people who would notice change and, and there, there's some comfort I noticed for me with, with my mom gone, that, that she won't have to live with losing a kid. Like there's some, some peace around that. And And probably, I imagine when my dad goes, there will be some of that as well.
My, my brother is. living with cancer. And, and so I have a pretty constant thought about what it's going to be like for my dad and, and step mom to live without him if it comes to that. And I don't know, it's like, like, I'm not, I'm not afraid of dying. Like that, that sounds great and has for a long time. And, and like, I'm not suicidal. I'm fine being here, but, but death sounds fine. That that's not scary to me. It's, it's impact on other people. And that I think is the worst. Is that? Yeah. And I think that's why some people hang on longer.
Ana:
But yeah, I have some of those thoughts too. And, and I think they're healthy to have, because then we choose who, The community we build around us maybe more carefully, right? Like, Oh, if I went like, would this community step up for my kids? Like, who are the people I'm cultivating in my life or the relationships I'm building? Yeah, so maybe that's a good thing to worry about, but not a good reason to delay something that's going to happen. Or I guess it's not like we could delay it, but like, I think it's a good thing to think about so that we have make intentional decisions about our community and, and friendships and.
role models for our kids. You know, when I have my podcast, I think about that sometimes, like my podcasts are like a lot of lessons that I want to teach my kid. So if something happens to me, she'll have my podcast. And it's funny, like she just turned 10 and, you know, she's Buddhist too. We were raising her Buddhist.
So she thinks about death and we talk about it. And for mother's day, she gave me this jar and it had little pieces of colored paper in it with little things that she loves about me, like, Oh, you're so this and that, and thank you for this. Like just these little gratitudes. And it was so freaking cute. I can't even stand it.
And then she said yeah, when you're sad, you can. open it and read some of the things and they'll help you feel better. And I was like, Oh, thank you. And then she goes, and then when you die, I'll put it in with you. And I was like, okay, like at least she's aware of it and thinking about it, but like not in this creepy way.
She was just like, Oh, and this would be a nice thing for her to take with her. If she dies. Right. Yeah. So I was pretty stoked on that actually. Cause I was like, wow, that's really, seems really healthy. Seems really healthy. Yeah. What else, what are people afraid of dying? What are they afraid of? A lot of people I work with especially if they're sort of not super solid in their own spiritual beliefs, not like it matters what it is, just that you have some sense of belief in, in what will happen, even if it's science and that you just, and if there's a waffling about that or an unsureness around it, that can create a lot of anxiety.
Personally. And I feel this way a lot about things that in Buddhism or in other spiritualities, like. It doesn't matter in the sense that would it actually change what I'm doing? Like the point is I'm going to die and I don't know when I actually don't give a shit what happens in the afterlife.
Because if I'm a good person in this life, that's great. I actually feel better if I'm acting out of alignment and integrity and compassion, like I'm not doing it just so I go to heaven. Like that's not a goal. And you know, and in Buddhism it's like, oh, okay, rebirth. And are you going to be reborn? And it's like, you know, that doesn't even matter if that's real or not.
I, it wouldn't change what I'm doing day to day. What is important to me is to acknowledge that I'm going to die. And I don't know when, and that Will help me live in integrity no matter what my beliefs about are that what happens after I die And so when there isn't I think Faith I guess is a word and what you think will happen in the afterlife It makes it hard because it's like that the brain likes to be confused, right?
It helps distract It seems useful, but it's actually not. And so the brain likes to be confused, like, well, wait, before we come to peace with death, let's figure out first what happens after we die. Let's, and it's like, you know, does that really matter? I don't think so. I think it can be helpful, but just like, decide one and then work on how you're living this life while you're here.
Because none of us really know. Like, someone even asked the Dalai Lama, like, what happens when we die? He was like, I don't know. I'm excited to find out. Like, we have all these theories. But anyway, like but another thing that people worry about is pain and discomfort when dying. Which I don't really think is as much of a deal as it used to be in terms of like, we got really good meds now and like that, that can actually be managed pretty well.
And yeah, you're going to be more out of it. But we actually have good systems now that have helped people a lot around that. And some people can really have their pain while managing and still, you know, be, you know, be present. There's that little balance to try to have there with my dad. I mean, he was zonked.
He was knocked out with his fentanyl patches. And then he wasn't like popped up. And I mean, you know, this is the first time when, when, when he was in hospice, I mean, literally he was like, hey, you know, when people are dying, they get like this, this, this, this, this, this, different skin. It's like peoply and so like he was there, man.
It was such a trip to get that phone call. Yeah. He was sleeping. He wasn't even waking up for days. It was wild. It's like, wow, I guess his body was just doing something in there. What do you attribute to that? What the fuck? How do you go through that active dying process and then pop out and go Their theory was that, their theory was that one of the treatments he had received earlier just took a long time to actually kick in. And it wasn't a treatment per se, it was more of a palliative care. It was like to decrease the size of the tumors, make it more comfortable, you know, like so he wasn't in as much pain, didn't have as much difficulty breathing, the masses weren't like pressing on things. Yeah. And so he had received this like kind of super duper duper steroid thing.
But yeah, they didn't expect that. So that, that was pretty cool. Yeah, cause we got another couple of years with him. And yeah, I feel people are afraid also of, I think, being powerless, like. I know with my dad, he had actually signed an advance an, an a do not resuscitate a DNR thing and DNI, do not intubate, and a resident was on, a new ish one, and he asked my mom, what do you want me to do?
Do you want me to intubate him? What do you want me to do? It's like, they're not supposed to do that. They're supposed to look at the DNR, DNI, and of course my mom's like do everything, whatever. And so it got ignored and gave me time to come and say, Goodbye to him in some ways, but also it was a long time of also the, the second time that he was dying, you know, a lot of being unsure.
He was, you know, frightened and in pain sometimes. And Whereas I think he would have just sort of fallen unconscious and died like if he had not had the intervention. So I think some people are worried about that, like tubes and all these things, which is why, you know, part of, even though it's a sort of side thing, because my jam is I enjoy much more working on the internal processes around thinking about death and how it contributes to us living a better life.
Doing those logistics is important. But at least even though people do it and it can get ignored you know, it does increase the chances that, that you'll have an environment that you want. But yeah, I think the pain and being, you know, in a medicalized environment and having feeding tubes or, you know, not really living and just kind of being there in a vegetative state for so long.
Like, I think people worry about that. But a lot of it is the fear of not existing and the implications of that.
It's one thing I find helpful in the Buddhist paradigm because in the Buddhist paradigm we don't exist already in, in, in that sense. Like the, the sense of an I is actually, you know, it's a mental construct, like, and one of my favorite phrases is like, I am nothing because I'm everything. So, you know, my spiritual practice, that's helpful because I'm like, yeah.
I already have been working on an awareness that I don't exist in the way I think I do. Sure. Yeah. Are you afraid of dying? Yeah, I actually have a practice. I try to do it every day, but obviously things we try to do every day often don't happen every day. But I, I have a practice where, it's a whole thing, but the death part of it is, I say, you know, these things I know to be true I say a whole bunch of things, but the thing around death is that I am going to die one day and I don't know when.
And a part of me doesn't want it to happen. A part of me knows it's really natural and is okay with it. And a part of me is afraid. of dying. And there's a part of me that's mostly really sad that one day I won't be able to watch a sunset or jump in an alpine tarn and lie out on a hot granite slab and dry out.
It's like, I love being alive. I love it. This planet is amazing. People are such a trip. There's so much suffering in the world and there's beauty. Like, there's, there's both. And yeah, it makes me sad to think that I won't be able to love the earth and then more than human beings and other human beings this way ever again in this body and in this type of awareness.
And, but I would say it's a little bit more sad than fear at this point. And that's okay. Like I'm okay being sad about that. I think I should be sad about that. Like it's true. Yeah, I won't. I won't be able to. Let's not stress out about, you know, like I was driving my daughter to camp today and I was like, Oh God, we're going to be five minutes late because, you know, I was totally raised in the colonial, like if you're late, it means you're not responsible and all that shit.
And I was just like, who gives a shit if we're five minutes, like, Like, really? Like, I'm not going to stress about that. And, you, you know, just like really helping me just let go and put things in a perspective. Like, who gives a shit if they're upset? I'm like, whatever. And of course I show up and they're like, it's fine.
And I'm like, see? But like, I would have normally like been so stressed about it and been like, ah, why does this happen? And so, so yeah. But in terms of being afraid, yeah, I think it. I mean, I'm a little anxiety machine. I think it was, I feel like it would be so weird for me to not be afraid. I don't know.
Like, what am I not like, I'm constantly thinking of all the worst shit that could happen. So it's like. Yeah, so I think if I'm being realistic, yeah, but I try I think because of my practice I really try to focus on and like just remember like you might not get another day to do this So like go jump in the lake my husband and I went skinny dipping on the 4th of July I was just like man, it is cold here.
It's over cut and I was like girl. I'll just do it You're gonna feel amazing. Yeah, you know and Little things like that and also big things like You know, and I want to get super pissed at my husband or something. It's just like, like, so much easier to let go when I think of that. It's a balance, though.
It's definitely a balance. But yeah, for sure, I'm afraid. You know, even with psychedelics and stuff, people are often concerned, like, I'm really nervous today. And they're worried, like, is that going to make it a really messed up trip or something? And I'm like, you know, Terrence McKenna said If you're not, I think it was Terrence.
He said if you're not a little anxious before a journey, you're probably not respecting the medicine enough. So it's like, I don't think the goal is to not be afraid or, but to also trust that, you know, I can be a little afraid, of course, this is the unknown. It'd be weird if I wasn't totally afraid.
Like, if I totally wasn't afraid. Like, maybe there's like just a little bit that's like, yeah, it's a little unknown. And I can also come to peace ahead of time with like, what it all means. Yeah. Do you have a sense of how you'll die? Or a guess? I don't, what's interesting is when I was little for some reason I thought I was going to die when I was 40 and so that was weird because I was like why would I have that number in my head and then when I was diagnosed with kidney cancer the guy said you're really lucky you found this randomly because most people like most people wouldn't notice anything until the tumor was really big and this would have caught up to you when you were 40.
And I was like, whoa, that's so weird. Cause that's what I thought. So I don't anymore. If you had asked me that growing up, I would have said something, something at 40, but I don't know now. No, I don't have a sense of that. No, I definitely feel like there's more. I still need to do. You do? Yeah. I mean, not like if I died, it would be a bummer if I didn't do it, but I feel like there's still some unfinished business that I'd like to do.
So I'm doing that. Yeah. Yeah.
Sarah:
Sometimes I'm afraid that if I finish. the projects that are alive that I'll then be ready to die. Like I can put it off. Like, like if I procrastinate my to do list. Yeah. Right.
Ana:
Like adding my death. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Which definitely doesn't happen. Right. So like, I, I wonder that too, there's so many superstitions in the Filipino culture.
Like, even after my mom died, one of my Filipino cousins was like, And you talked about death that day. Like, as if that was the thing that led to it, right? So we often have these fears. If you talk about it, it's going to happen. And then you have the law of attraction stuff that's like, Oh, if you're thinking about it, are you going to?
And I'm like, no, trust me. Like, this, thinking about death is actually quite common in many traditional cultures. They just like, and they often live really long. So it's, it's not that, but yeah, I think that that's definitely a thing. Like and. Yeah, I try to feel like, you know, with my podcast, it's like, Oh, like I was saying when I think about my daughter, like, okay, wait, is there another episode?
Like, like what would I want her to hear or think about or know about? Yeah. So I think you can have both. I think you can feel like today's a good day to die and yeah, there's more I'd like to do. And if we just know there's always more to do if we want, then it doesn't become a thing about our death maybe.
I don't know.
Yeah. Interesting thought. I'm sure I do.
Sarah:
That thing about, about you dying at 40, it's interesting. I've worked with some people and with myself around, you know, thinking that we're going to die at a particular time or whatever. And I feel like we can, you know, I mean, who knows what's real, but, but I wonder if we can change that trajectory.
Like, like if as a kid you thought you were going to die at 40, maybe that was true. Maybe you saw what was true based on who you were in the world and, and some of the practices and things that you did. tuning in to your insights or whatever it is that brought you in, changed that path, that you changed that path with your practice.
That's what I wonder. What was that trippy movie? Was it in Inception or something? Maybe. I haven't seen it. It was like universes within universes and then like, can we change? And then there's this other trippy show that's like, I think it's called Dark Matter or something. It's like parallel universes and can you change?
So I wonder that too. Like, I wonder if I grew in some way or learned something that I was like, Boom. Jumped into a different parallel universe. Yeah. Or something. Yeah. I mean, I'm kind of a currently, I believe in the metaphysics of these like parallel universes and how like all options are kind of like a thing that, that can happen.
And I don't know, I'm willing to change my mind, but currently that, that seems to make some sense, but yeah, like something shifted. Right. Yeah. Cause it was really weird. Like the, the way the tumor got found is I was rock climbing at Smith rock with my partner and I, afterwards we went to a brewery and bend and I think I had a beer and some fish and chips.
And then we got home in Southern Oregon and I was like on the floor in the fetal position in so much pain. Hmm. And he was like, that is so weird. He's like, you like eat street food in India and you don't get sick. And I was like, yeah. And then he got me like Pepsi or something from the gas station. Cause everything was closed by the time we'd gotten back.
And I felt a little better. And then another day, and I was in getting my master's at UC San Francisco at the time to be a nurse practitioner. And then I was on my way. to class and I got like a quesadilla and I was eating the quesadilla and the same thing happened like severe pain and everything.
And I was like, Oh, it's all like with fatty foods, like the fried thing with, you know, fish and chips. And then this, and I'm like, it's probably gallbladder thing. So I went into student health and I was like, I think my mom had a gallbladder issue and I've been eating these fatty things. And they're like, okay, we'll do like an abdominal ultrasound.
For your gallbladder. And then I'd been in school long enough to know that whatever they were focusing on was not where my gallbladder was. They're like, turn over, turn over again. And I'm like, okay, I know my gallbladder is not back there. And then And then the guy comes in, the doctor, and that's also worrisome because usually if they don't find anything, they're just like sending out, he's like, okay, well, like 99%, this is probably nothing, but we should get a CT scan because there's a mass on your kidney.
At UC San Francisco, they do a full abdominal ultrasound no matter your complaint, which I think is super cool because a lot of places will be like, where do you want me to look in the upper right hand quadrant? And then they'll only look there. But at UCSF at the time they did the whole abdomen no matter what.
And so anyway they're like, your gallbladder looks fine. And then later I found out my mom had no gallbladder issues. Like, why did I say that? She's like, no, I had kidney stones. And anyway, and and it turned, it, it turns out I never had that pain again. Like I ate fatty foods again. Like after I got that ultrasound, I never had that pain again.
Interesting. Yeah. So I was like, something had to be bad enough that I would go in and get it looked at. And then after I got it looked at, it never came back. And they said that the tumor itself was not going to cause that kind of pain. Like they're like, no, like you wouldn't have even noticed this for until you're rewarding.
Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's wild.
Sarah:
Thank you for sharing that. Yeah. What is there anything that you had hoped that we would talk about that we haven't yet?
Ana:Oh, that's a good question. I think we've, I think we've touched on a lot of great things. I, I, I think, you know, the main thing that I was excited to talk about is to not be afraid to talk about death and to think about it because when I And perhaps if you don't have guidance or if you're misguided about death, it can feel really scary and depressing.
But, but if we actually acknowledge that death is always happening around us, that it has to happen for us, world to continue. That it's part of everything. We're no exception. We're a part of nature and this happens in nature and like my dog doesn't sit here worrying about it. He's just hanging out at my feet.
Super happy. She, I don't know. I always mess up her pronouns. In, in the Filipino language, there's no pronouns. My kids always say, did you misgender him? Don't misgender him. And, and so, yeah, I, I feel like it, for me, it has led to me leading a more full life, a more complete present life with fewer regrets.
Yeah. That's what I hope for everyone. And I'm so glad you're doing this podcast. Thank you. Me too. Yeah.
ABOUT ANA VERZONE
Dr. Ana Verzone is a Soul Midwife, helping people explore their consciousness and impermanence so that they may live a life - and die - with no regrets. She is also the host of the top-rated Rebel Buddhist podcast.
She soul midwifes as a psychiatric mental health nurse practitioner certified in psychedelic-assisted psychotherapy, life coach, and death doula. She specializes in combining entheogens with nature-based wilderness retreats.
Her calling is to help people experience what it’s like to truly be alive, discovering + embodying their soul-based life purpose to make the most of this one precious life. She guides people to explore their connection to their wild roots, and soften the edges around embracing the impermanence/death of all things, and the longing contained in grief.
Ana believes in the fundamental human right to explore our consciousness and increasing access and connection with wildness + nature for healing.
She delights in helping people move their focus from the attraction of false quick fixes to the allurement of the sustained path and joy of a committed practice.
She received her post-doctorate degree from Johns Hopkins University and utilizes many different approaches in her practice, including Internal Family Systems (IFS), Sensorimotor Psychotherapy, Brainspotting, Forest Therapy, Compassionate Inquiry, and more.
Connect with Ana:
Timestamps And Topics
00:00 Introduction and Personal Update
01:01 Reflecting on Death and Meditation
02:03 Meet Ana Verzone: Soul Midwife
03:14 Understanding Entheogens
04:18 Legal and Ethical Considerations
10:04 The Role of Elders and Wisdom
12:41 Personal Experiences with Death
26:54 Comparing Birth and Death
31:29 Integrating Death Doula Work into Programs
33:07 Facing End-of-Life Anxiety
33:45 Personal Reflections on Death and Family
37:29 Spiritual Beliefs and the Afterlife
39:47 Managing Pain and Medical Interventions
43:24 The Role of Spiritual Practice in Accepting Death
48:19 Unexpected Health Discoveries
55:31 Embracing Conversations About Death
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