EPISODE 12: Life, Death, and Secrets: Jessica Waite's Path to Healing
In this episode of the 'About Death' podcast, host Sarah Yost welcomes guest Jessica Waite, author of 'Widow's Guide to Dead Bastards.' Jessica shares her tumultuous journey following the sudden death of her husband, Sean, who she discovered was living a double life filled with secrets like hidden debts and pornography. The conversation delves into how Jessica reconciled with these revelations, her experiences of spiritual occurrences post-Sean's death, and her path to forgiveness and healing. They discuss the impact of these experiences on Jessica's relationships, particularly with her son, and the broader implications of dealing with anger and grief. The episode touches on themes of redemption, psychic connections, and the evolving relationship with the deceased.
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Sarah:
Hi friends, this is your host, master coach and teacher, Sarah Yost. You are listening to the About Death podcast, the show about living life on your own terms. Stick around if you want way more of what you want with way less anxiety.
Today's guest is Jessica Waite. She published the memoir, Widow's Guide to Dead Bastards. Do you love that title? It's so good. She published it last week and I listened to it all in one day Loved it Knew that I wanted to bring her on this podcast to talk about her story. It's really It's it's really remarkable.
So what happened is her husband died and Almost immediately. She realized that he was living a double life and and that shit is salacious, what he was doing. It is really, it is really wild. So even if you're not interested in the healing and the redemption and the weird mystical shit that happens, I mean, it's a really good story.
It is really wild. So the first half is dealing with unraveling all the stuff that, that He was doing and her response to it and all that And then the second half is about her Reconciliation reconciliation with him within herself All the all the ways that she put it all back together And it's it's really lovely and interesting and our conversation today.
I asked her the question before we started recording I asked her. Um What are you tired of talking about? And what Do you hope that, what would you, what are you not asked enough that you would like to talk about more? And she said, the things that I am really interested in are the things that you're really interested in.
And those are the things that I'm asked about the least. So most of our conversation is about that. It's about the internal stuff, the emotional stuff, the, the Psychic connections and how to make sense of that and also just the practical aspects of how to be in, I say this, it is practical, the practical question of how to be in a relationship with someone who's dead.
So I hope that you really enjoy this. I, I loved her book. I really enjoyed this conversation and I'm so proud to bring it to you.
Jessica:
Hi, sure. Yeah. My name is Jessica Waite. I live in Calgary, Alberta and Canada on Treaty 7 territory with my teenage son and our dog. Um, and I am, A very recent author of a memoir called The Widow's Guide to Dead Bastards, uh, that tells a story of my husband's sudden death.
Some secrets that I found out after his passing and then trying to make sense of everything that happened next.
Sarah:
You told the story so well in your book, and I don't want you to repeat that too much, but would you give us just a little more context of what you were grappling with and what this is about?
Jessica:
Sure. So I was married for 17 years to a man named Sean. Uh, he was a really fun loving, hardworking, charismatic, um, and it, but by most accounts, excellent guy. Um, But he did suffer from some like mood swings and, and. Anyway, and so things were not always perfect in our marriage and he traveled a lot for business.
And when he was on a two day business trip to Houston he died suddenly of a heart attack. And then day of his funeral a box of his personal effects arrived and when I opened it the next day, I started to find out that he had been keeping some Very egregious secrets from me. And so those involved compulsive spending, he was hiding debt.
Um, he had been sexually promiscuous. He had been to my view, although this is controversial, but addicted to pornography. And he was, he had basically since the advent of the internet been building up a massive cache of pornography that I discovered. And so each of these things was just like, you know, on top of the loss of someone who was the person that I loved and trusted the most in the world, who was our sole breadwinner, who was a great dad to our son who was nine at the time that his dad died.
It was just, you know, sort of one thing after another that felt like was, was really knocking me down. Um, Then shortly after making those discoveries, strange things started happening around my home that didn't used to happen, like the TV and stereo were turning on by themselves and all the light bulbs were burning out.
And I also noticed that my own perceptions were altered in this strange way so that I was, you know, I'd be at the library and a book would jump out at me and then the book would have some kind of direct relevance to my life. And so, so the story basically, The first half is like sort of like a mystery.
Who did I marry? Like, who was this man really? And then the second half is sort of like, what do you do when you find yourself in a situation where everything that you believed is not holding water and new things that you didn't used to believe are coming into play. And how do you make sense of all of that?
Sarah:
I wonder how common that kind of thing is because what you're describing is so common in the grief experience. Um, you know, I know this isn't the same thing, but my experience after my mother died was my relationship with her shifted quite a bit. And I know that happens for lots of people when the human shit is gone, they're, they're left with, they're able to to grapple differently with, with relationships.
So, so that aspect of what you dealt with him, with him, I think is, is fairly common. But what kind of resources did you, like, was there anything to Google about finding secrets afterwards?
Jessica:Gosh. I didn't go to Google. Okay. So I'm now that this book it's been out for a week. Um, I'm hearing from a lot of people and finding out that it's sadly, it's way more common than I knew it felt extremely isolating and I wasn't Googling it either.
I was just like, yeah, I don't even know if I could have gathered myself to, you know, cause it's like, you have to be careful what your search terms are too. Right. Right. And so I, uh, the. The questions that I was asking, or where I was looking for the clues was more in the my direct experience. And so I was just going through, you know, without that cache of pornography, like, well, one of the strange things that happened is that I, I guessed my husband's password, like on the second attempt.
Right. And so then that, like, once I had access to his computer, um, I could, so I was looking there to sort of. Find like, what did I miss? Who was this person? What were they into? What were these behaviors? And, and then, um, yeah, and I turned immediately to counseling like the neck after I found that I made an emergency appointment with the person that I'd never met.
And so I had some belief that those kinds of things could help. And I think that they did help, you know, I started with talk therapy, but. over time, I kind of ran into the end of its efficacy for me. Um, I tried body modalities and, and over time, I guess, and this comes through in the book, the thing that helped me probably the most, like if I put it to one single person was working with a death doula who was able to of hold all of the things, the human behavior, the grief, and also the Far out things that were happening because, you know, of the her cosmology around death and dying and the relationship between the living and the dead allowed for it allowed to pick like it allowed my experience to make sense if that makes sense.
Oh, gosh, I'm an easy crier. And when I'm very. Me Ernest. It comes leaking out my eyes. So we're just like, yeah, so you know, it's like the, yeah, the human truth detector test or something. Um, anyway, um, Yeah. So, so when I worked with her, she was able to allow, um, the possibility and to help me frame a situation where, um, there are lots of ways that the dead and the living can stay in communication and stay in touch.
And that, you know, with Sean's nature, like I mentioned off the top, he had, it wasn't uncommon that he would like have a short fuse and blow up, but he would always come around and be like, I am sorry. I'm such an asshole. Thank you for putting up with me, you know, like those kind of things, which, you know, that can wear thin if it's too much, but it always seemed genuine.
And he always seemed like someone who, when he messed up, would try to make amends. And so, so it felt like in a lot of ways that these big grand gestures might have been some kind of attempted amends, or at least to get my attention to be like, Hey, yeah. And so, I mean, you know, We have to make the sense of, of what's happening and, and, or not like we can ignore it and pretend that it's not happening.
Sarah:
what was your relationship to weird spiritual shit before he died? Well,
Jessica:
I would say that For the most part, I held a rational materialist worldview, like the secular worldview that is sort of like pervasive in the dominant culture. But I had had a couple of things happen before, that I just sort of compartmentalized. And then once this big thing happened, they made sense in a different way.
And so one of them I go into really briefly in the book, but I, um, there was a night. Um, when my old boyfriend died by suicide and I, and in that very night, he came into my awareness as I was sleeping and I knew that it was him, um, it was just very weird. It was. It's weird because I was asleep, but it wasn't like a dream.
It was like I was dreaming. And then the dream changed channels, if that makes sense. And then it's like, I couldn't see him, but I knew it was him. Um, and then the next day when I found out that he had died, I was like, Whoa, like, like, and, but you know, it's just like, Whoa, weird, but I didn't tell anyone. And I didn't really, you know, I didn't.
Do anything with that information. But so later, um, when I had a different way of holding it, I did reach out to his family just to share that I had had that experience. And because what it felt like to me in the moment was sort of like, like, just like a burst of love, if that makes sense. And it felt like he was okay.
And because he had died by suicide, I think. Maybe that meant something to the family. Do you know what do you know what I mean? And maybe not like this is what makes it so hard because you don't know if something like that's going to be welcome. Like, are they going to believe you? Is it going to help her help and heal?
Or is it going to hurt? And yeah, and so I think that's probably part of the reason why we don't freely talk about these things is because it's hard to know in the social structure, like, If there's an opening there, or if you're inserting yourself in a way that isn't welcome. Yeah. What, what, I mean, what do you think?
Sarah:
Yeah, I, I really appreciated the way that you talked about that in your book about, um, the jealousy and the, the, the anguish and the things that you experienced when Sean came to other people and not to you and how you came to understand. And I, I just think this, I think this is a really great way of saying it, that you came to understand that, that perhaps the, the closer grieving people are so scrambled with emotion.
I mean, fuck, I can't like, I couldn't find my car keys, much less like to tune in to anything, right? And yes, you know, there's, there's no clear field in there, um, cognitively, spiritually, emotionally. And so anyway, I just appreciated how you talked about how we're scrambled and, and maybe they just find the closest opening, which may literally be your next door neighbor.
And it may literally be a former girlfriend. So. Yeah. I love, I loved that explanation. Yeah. Yeah.
Jessica:
And so that's sort of how I think about that now. And it makes a lot of sense about like, that we're just so overwhelmed and so scrambled that we can't, yeah, that would like, and I know like in myself, that my perceptions were exactly that, like you said, totally scrambled.
I wasn't eating, I wasn't sleeping. I wasn't, and, and this is after Sean, Sean's death. Um, but I also see now like that. Those states of like fasting and sleep deprivation are things that people will use to try to, you know, vision fast, like, like to try and reach altered states of consciousness. And so part of my thinking about it now is like, You know, maybe these loss of appetite and stuff is, is intended to help us function so that we can communicate or connect or, or, you know, like the, that is maybe grief serves an evolutionary function in human development to help us open up to these things.
Sarah:
You know, I, I don't know, but it, yeah, that it makes sense to me. That makes so much sense. You know, my, my personal experience. So, tell me, how long was it between the time he died and his funeral? Was it two weeks?
Jessica:It was a week. One week. One week.
Sarah:Okay. So, so my experience. So, so when my mom died, um, there was about five days between, um, she fell down the stairs and then, um, they took her organs about five days later.
So there was this five day. Okay. window. And my recollection of that was no, I didn't sleep and I didn't eat and I couldn't like cognitively do a lot, but I was pretty fucking clear. You know, I was, I was very connected, very present. I had, I was, I, I believe I was able to feel her spirit when it left. I, I felt what was happening at the hospital.
Like I just, that I was, pretty solid spiritually in that first window and my therapist described that type of grief as similar to a psychedelic experience, which made a whole lot of sense because it, it just opens. opens all the channels. And I didn't have a whole lot to heal with, with my mom, honestly, but I did have a lot to heal with my partner.
We had been separated for about six months. And so that, that opening and that clarity and that psychedelic type experience allowed for a complete rearranging of that relationship. So it's like, so, so I just love what you're saying about the way that our body responds naturally makes sense. It makes sense evolutionarily and it's always for our good.
Yeah. Yeah. And, and I, I really I'm appreciating what you said about how the, you know, the shift, um, like with it, reorganize your other relationships too, because that I had a similar kind of thing with it, with a bunch of, you know, just like, it's like all the pieces are in flux. Right. And so suddenly, um, how, how things are going to come together, um, afterward can be totally different.
Right. And so for you, you know, I imagine there was a similar, you know, that just, that, that initial shock, stunned. You know, um, and then for you to then enter, wait, I don't even know who this person is, like, everything that he's done is so egregious to me and to us. Like, I, I just imagine that had to have put you in a completely different reorganizing of your experience.
Jessica:
Yeah, yeah, it's sort of like the bottom fell out. And then the bottom fell out again. I didn't know there was like another, like, like, sub basement. But yeah, it was another. Yeah. Yeah.
Sarah:So, um, there were a couple things I wanted to ask you and I don't remember where we were because we've gone lots of places. So let me just feel for what's, what's here now. How did you, so you hadn't had a lot of experiences before and you started to have experiences after he died. And what was that like for you?
Did you think they were from him? Did you think you were crazy? Like, how did you begin to perceive those?
Jessica:Yeah, both of those things. Um, but I, I just. I'm gonna give a maybe like non linear answer, but I think it's really interesting like when we're talking about what we believe as though that's a static thing.
Do you know what I mean? Because like what you believe when you're in your cubicle at work and doing it, you know, it's like versus what you believe in a dark forest at night, you know, it's like, it's so contextual. And so a lot of what, how I responded to that had to do with how I was. Feeling in the moment.
And so, you know, when my TV turned on by itself, like mostly I was really mad at Sean when these things were starting to happen. And so I was like, not open to any sort of overture from him. So it's like the TV turns on, I unplug it and get in my car and take it to the thrift shop and donate it away. And so I was like, get rid, get rid, get rid, get rid, get rid.
But, you know, Um, this is story is told in the book too, but like Sean and I had made a pact with one another, um, that if there was any sort of thing in the afterlife that whoever died first would come back to prove it to the other one in the form of electricity on their birthday. So that was very specific kind of thing.
Yeah. And, and so. So Sean died on November 4th. I found out his secrets on November 12th. And then four days after that, it was his birthday, November 16th. So I remember on that day, like, just like, Scanning the room for like the sign, the electrical sign and nothing happened, of course. And I was like, of course, you're such a liar.
You would renege on that deal as well as everything else. And so, and so then, but then when the things did start happening, I was like, Too little too late or whatever. But sometimes I would be like, because there was it wasn't just electricity there were like, and like unusual animal encounters where I felt a very strong sense of connection there were things happening with the books there was, and there's so much more than what I included in the writing of the story that also really supported me.
Like that. So like there was so much support around the writing of the book that I feel like in some ways we wrote the book together. Not that I was channeling him, but that there was just like, every time I was down, I would get assigned to keep going. Like there were so many things, um, that made me feel like, That there was support from beyond about the telling of the story because the question that was at the heart of it for me is, can relationships heal beyond the veil of death.
And so that's what I wanted like I wanted, like my stated ambition was to like, bring my Sean, like the good shine back to life in my mind so I could forgive him and move on. And which sounds, you know, great. And, but I didn't know how to do that for one thing. And as I went on, and this is like the struggle in the story, I learned like a, you can't will yourself to forgive.
Like it's like, it's not forget this is something that comes from the force of will, but also. You know, can we really cherry pick the likable parts of someone to forgive? Or do we have to like allow someone to be in their full humanity and be able to look at that? And then, you know, yeah. So I wonder if your neighbors had electrical shit piles on his birthday.
I wonder too, that's such a funny question. It's such a funny thing to think about because of course we'd all be like, ah, Wi Fi stupid blah blah. You know, like, like we'll just be mad about technical glitches, but uh, the neighbors has been died. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm sure everyone was ascribing it to that.
Um, but, but it's very funny because I, you know, I, I, I would say that now, like these days I have a much more. Open to possibility framework and so I just try to hold my beliefs very lightly and just kind of see like what's happening and you know how will we make sense of that. But I have gone a few times to an online conversation that's led by a guy named Stephen Berkeley, who has a movie I think it's called.
He changed the title. When I saw it, I think it was called life with ghosts. And now I think it's called living with ghosts. Anyway, one of those ads for that.
Sarah:Yeah. That's part of my algorithm.
Yeah. Yeah. And so it's interesting. And, and, um, the story was much like very much about automatic writing and, and about people who were doing, who were doing this automatic writing practice seem to be coping with grief better.But there were some really interesting interviews with people who are Approaching, like, something that they call, like, IADC, which is Induced After Death Communication, where in a facilitated environment, um, people can come into some sort of form of connection with their loved one, and it really helps them with the pain and anguish of grief.
And what one of the facilitators said was, he doesn't think that They're inducing anything, what he thinks that they're doing as by doing this process. And I think the process is a little bit of a, an offshoot of, do you know, EMDR? Yeah. So it's like a little bit of the EMDR protocol and a little bit adapted from that, but with presence with support and help like that, they do this thing.
And what I think happens is it dials down that. overwhelming scramble of anguish to the point that the person can feel and receive something that was already here. So it's not induced. It's just that it's regulating us enough that it is revealed. Um, and so anyway, that is a side, it's still interesting to me, but a tangent of what I was going to say that in this community, he interviewed someone who, uh, is an intuitive medium.
But one of the things that she's been picking up is that like, she's doing this art and drawing people that are appearing to her when she's in conversation with clients. And she feels like, um, spirit is learning to use technology. So I don't know if that's true. I mean, like, I don't have those perceptions.
I don't have any direct experience with that, but it's really interesting to think about, like, Well, what if, you know, we're all, you know, I get very anxious about how fast technology is moving, how it seems to be like, you know, AI is like intelligence without any sort of consciousness or soul. Like, how can it go in a good direction?
But it's like, oh no, what if it's just another creation that can be infused with, Love and goodness. And, you know, in, in the same way that, that all forms of life are. So anyway, this is very, yeah, I feel like I'm really off roading here, but, but I'm just saying that there, there are people who are looking in these directions and.
It feels like it feels to me, super validating to include all kinds of experience because I think that my big regret. I'm not sure I should really label it as a regret, but, but I feel like I could have maybe suffered less through the events of my story. If I had been willing to connect with other people and normalize and validate some of these experiences sooner, rather than holding it all in secrecy and isolation and feeling like I was losing my mind and worrying about judgment, all of that kind of thing.
And so I'm very happy when people are applying some sort of. Rigor to and to looking at these things and then also trying to break through some of the structural, uh, like there are structural impediments to being able to offer this treatment like everybody who hears about this IADC thing. Thing and wants to like getting in touch with their loved one and have less pain, um, wants to work with this guy, but he's can only go with the states that he's licensed in.
Do you know what I mean? So there's these things that like kind of stop it from being able to spread in what might be a healthy way. And at the same time, there's tons of grift and charlatanism and we have to be careful about like, you know, who we share our story with and who we trust and, and all of that too.
Sarah:
So has your Does he still, now that the story is written, does he still communicate as much in those ways?
Jessica:
No. So definitely not in those like big glaring, like high energy things. Um, that stuff has all mostly subsided. Like when my light flickers now, I just think it's the same reasons that light normally flickers or maybe, you know, one of my neighbor's relative has died. If we're going to use the model that we just Um, but, uh, Yeah, in, in the way I hold it and I, you know, I don't claim to like know what happens when we die or know for sure anything about what, what happened, but what it seems like to me is that, and, and because I had to learn to trust some other people who were helping me as well, which were therapists, but also let many different kinds of modalities, including working with a, a shamanic healer who, um, I really trust and, and.
And people that she referred me to. Um, it seems like Sean might not have crossed right away because his death was so sudden. It was so unexpected. There was a big mess behind and it kind of felt like the things that he was doing were very interfering, if that, if that makes sense. Um, and that once that I started to like act in a way that showed that I was kind of getting the message, open up my heart.
To some sort of reconciliation, um, and kind of claim like, we're okay, like you go do your spirit thing, you know, um, that, that was freeing to him to, to move on. Um, so that, that's sort of how I hold it and without being able to really know for sure that he's like, yeah, not that he's gone, but just that those things don't need to happen because they serve their purposes now.
Yeah, we've moved past it, if that makes sense.
Sarah:I mean, I think that's the way that the parts of ourselves speak to us. You know, they're fucking erratic and in the way and problematic and they break things until we stop and go, what, what is this? What, what, what self are you yelling to me about? And then we stop and, and attend to it.
And then they, They quiet, they don't have to yell to get our attention. And so then we can live in concert. And I'm just talking about, you know, our little child stuff, you know, all the inner stuff. That's how you're describing your relationship with Sean.
Jessica;
Yeah, that's interesting. Like, because I, I understand exactly what you mean.
Sarah:
And even just like, oh, my elbow's giving me, you know what I mean? Like whatever, like parts of our body too. Like, like, so it seems like, Yeah, that that must be a dynamic that whispers, then they won't become screams. Yes. Come scrapes. Yeah. Right. But if you're so scrambled, then that's the only thing you can hear.
So, yeah. Yeah. And I wonder, you know, I don't think there's an answer, but, but as you say that, you know, I've always thought, I don't know, those, those parts of those recurrent. Whatever symptoms or internal experiences, you know, once, once they're fully felt, heard, understood. attended to, seen, they go away.
But I don't know that they go away. Maybe they just become apart. And maybe that's what our beloveds do. They don't go away. I think, I think maybe the idea is that the veil is thin because they're here. They're not elsewhere.
Jessica:Yeah, I think so too. And I sort of think about it, like, remember in Alice in Wonderland, how she like changes size, like sometimes she's too big, and sometimes she's so little.
I, I feel like that's sort of What the parts do like they become outsized. Um, and then they can't fit back into. And so then we need to like, adjust something, pay attention. And so that the thing can become the right size. And then when, when things are right size. It's very fluid and efficient and we can go on, but when they're the right or when they're too big or too small, um, that becomes a pain point and we need to readjust something.
Sarah:
Did you find in your relationship, your living relationship with Sean, when you were both living, did you find that, that those places, the money and the sex, that those were the points in your relationship where there was the most friction?
Jessica:
Yes, but not all the time. Um, so. Yeah. Yeah. But I think what the friction came from, um, just a feeling, I guess, of a double standard, which was there like all the time. And so like an example would be, um, you know, when we were both working, we both made around the same amount of money. Sometimes I had to make a little more, he would make a little more, but then when I stayed home with our son and Sean became our sole breadwinner, like the dynamic really changed around money and suddenly.
You know, he was criticizing me for spending a small amount of money when he was spending gobs of money. And, but now that, now that I know that he was compulsively spending money and hiding debt, like I just assumed based on, you know, his, like our family income that I had 20 bucks to blow at Ikea on a whatever.
Um, but I didn't realize the financial pressure that he was under because, you know, he was tens of thousands of dollars of debt. in debt that I didn't know about. So, so that also makes sense to me, but yeah, yeah, the, those were the pain points and
mostly around money and sex. And so like my feelings of loneliness and my marriage and that sort of thing, which, yeah.
Sarah:
It's interesting that you had, and that you suffered with that feeling of loneliness and that he tried so hard to make himself known and be a part of that grieving experience. It's like just the opposite of, it's like everything that you had called, asked for in a way.
Jessica:Yeah, I never thought of it exactly in that way, but Um, I see what you mean and and in the moments when I did see it like there's one scene in the story when a song surprises me and I feel I feel that sort of integration and yeah, it's um, yeah, it, um, I tend to hesitate to want to talk about the gifts and grief, although it's not a secret that.
I think they're out there, but I, I never want to like apply pressure on to anyone because I feel like, you know, the feeling of obligation to like look on the bright side or find the gift or, you know, that sort of thing. It feels like, get out of my face. What I'd want to tell anyone when I was going through it, but, but, um, like finding my way back to love and to like a greater love than I even had before has it's been an amazing thing.
And so, yeah. Yeah.
Sarah:
How do you, I don't know if you can easily answer this, but how did you Start to reconcile with him.
Jessica:Um, well, I have a direct answer. I, I didn't know that this was, I was doing this as an act of reconciliation and it might be controversial, but I discharged my anger by doing a revenge plan on someone that I thought deserved to hold some of the responsibility for what happened. And the next day after like, Releasing anger that I had been repressing out an event happened and I was able to soften my heart to that.
And so I'm not saying like, go get revenge. But I do feel like there's a, like, I do know Martine Prechtel, the smell of rain on dust. I think this there's, he has a few books, but one of them, he talks about like, like in a healthy culture. When there's been some sort of transgression and somebody has an impulse to revenge because I mean we do right it's like, let's get them like that one of the things that they'll do is like, build it up, because the, the wise counsel who hasn't been victimized is like, they know that they're never going to act this through so they're like, let's go burn down their house.
Yeah, and then we'll do that. Yeah, and then we'll block and then. You know, and then there's almost like, I feel like, like a, like an orgasm of anger. And then it's like, and then after that comes. The grief for what was lost, and then the praise of what was right. So, yeah. And so for me, I couldn't properly get to where I needed to go while I was holding on to all that anger.
So, so I'm not sorry that I did what I did, but I also did exercise some restraint, I didn't act On my first impulse of revenge, and I didn't do the worst possible thing that I could do, you know, like, it's like, I tried to temper it a little bit. And, you know, knowing what I know now, there's probably even better ways that I could have gone about it.
But I'm glad I got through my anger. Yeah. Yeah.
Anger is such a tough one for people to, to work with, especially women for a million reasons. I appreciate I'm going to look up this author. I appreciate what you said about that when, when I work with clients with anger, I'll invite them to go there. You know, what, what, what are you really thinking?And, and, and most people can't access it. And so I'll ask him to, to think of it in cartoon, like, like, like in cartoon form. And then people can often. get a lot closer, like, like, I cannot access violence for this person, even though there's so much violent emotion. But maybe if it's a little Roadrunner ask, you know, maybe if it's just a little acne, blow his ass up.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, get there. Right. And yeah, and so that's a, you know, a way in that, that I'll use to access that because just so much shame around. around our experience of anger. Yeah. Yeah. Like so many ways that it's not okay. And then so many ways that like you try to do it and it blows back on you, like if, if it doesn't go the way that you imagined.
Jessica:
So, yeah, I love that image of the cartoon because then no one really has to get hurt. And I think that's the point of like the wisdom council, right. It's like we, we play it out, but no one's really getting hurt because otherwise we're just perpetuating, you know, that. Cycle in this way. We can yeah, get, get close without fueling the outcome, the worst possible outcome.
Sarah:
Yeah. Right. Right. And, you know, that's one of those things that when you don't fully move into the heart of it, it, it just infects everything that's there. It infects it in so many ways. And then, and then when we're exhausted by it, then it becomes a depression or an inward collapsing. You know, it. It's just infectious all over the place.
So I appreciate the way that you're talking about that. And it, you know, it sounds like, I don't know, maybe you've caused some damage, but maybe it was should have caused some damage and, you know, it sounds like that relationship. Well, maybe you can just say real quick, you know, for people that haven't just listened to your book.
But anyway, maybe you should have blown that shit up. Maybe they needed to be blown up.
Jessica:
Yeah, it's weird. And there's I can't really go into a bunch of interesting epilogue in my personal life that's happening or happening around that right now. So just to sort of show like things. You know, go on a continuum.
And just because you write the end on a story. But yeah, for someone who's listening, who doesn't know that this was a, um, a long term affair that my husband had been having. And I, you know, he was dead and I was yelling at the air, but I found her and there was just a bunch of, you know, For a bunch of other reasons.
Um, I felt like she should hold some of the responsibility and so executed a revenge plan on her on Christmas Eve, which writing that was like one of my deepest shames like I'm so like there's a couple of ways that I look really bad in this story like I, I, I'm just so embarrassed about about some of the things that I did.
And this is one of those things. But so many people tell me it's their favorite part. Then I have to laugh because I'm like, you know what, it's probably because of what you said. We're just so regulated against expressing anger. And so people get to vicariously, you know, do yes, do this kind of bad thing and yeah.
And get away with it. So, yeah.
Sarah:Okay. So you did that and then it dissipated it and then you were able to make connection and then were you still mad at him after that? Was there still? Yeah, I was mad. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Um, I, I was still mad and kept being mad But I guess like that was the biggest one. And then after that, like each thing, like I was saying about the big size, like it kind of started to lose its power.
And so every time it would come back, it'd be a little smaller and a little bit smaller and a little bit smaller. So I'm not really plagued with anger, um, anymore. Like, I think there's the odd time, like if I really wanted to get myself going, going, there's a couple of things that I would still be a bit mad about, but mostly.
It's right sized and, and now and, and, and. The other thing I'd love to say about anger is I'm so grateful to it for helping me. It's so it feels so empowering. And so I was able to quickly do a lot of things that most people in a, and I hate to say that I know there's no normal thing but like in a typical bereavement, you might be too waylaid by your sadness to like clean out their stuff or that kind of thing and I'm like, get it out.
So my anger fueled me to move forward quickly in a lot of ways. Um, but there came a time when it was just so looping and it was so clear to me, like who was right and who was wrong. And nobody that I talked to would dispel me of any of those notions. But being right was not helping me feel better. It was actually.
It's just this corrosive thing that was eating me alive. And so that was the point when I'm like, if I don't get rid of this, I am going to become bitter. I am going to be resentful. I'm going to probably end up alone because who wants to be like, like with this bitter resentful person and that, that the stakes of.
not processing this anger and pain were really high. And I, I kind of, I don't know if you're like into pet peeves, but, but I feel like we might, we might share, um, this in some ways that these sort of personal relational domestic stories are so often treated like. They don't matter or their gossip or their, you know, just like, keep it, you know, keep the dirty laundry tucked away, that sort of thing.
How we do this is how we do everything. Do you know what I mean? It's not like, and not processing this, like you just take into like whatever other sphere you're operating in. And I think so many of the things that are considered like important or worthy geopolitical things. Um, Are just fractals of, of these unresolved things.
And so anyway, so that's why I really like, believe so much in the power of personal story. And that, and that is part of what gave me the courage to put this, you know, pretty personal set of details out into the world. So, yeah. Yeah.
Sarah:I so appreciate that you did how Frank you were. And, you know, I'm a pretty, I don't know, foul mouthed kind of slutty woman. And there's not much that, um, that shocks me, but there were a couple of moments in your book where I was like, damn, she, uh, she went there. All right. You know, there were, you did, you held a lot of, a lot of edges and I appreciate how much you put out there.
Jessica:Thanks. I still, a weekend, I'm like toggling between being like elated and super proud that it's like, I did it.
And then. Wanting to throw up.
Sarah:I bet the vulnerability hangover is off the hook for you. Yeah. Yeah. Did you get to dissipate some of that with the advanced copy? Like, did you send that to the people that you knew?
Jessica:A bit, like, so, so that, and that's the other thing. It's like, cause some people will say, Oh, you're brave.
And I've never really felt brave ever. I just feel scared, but I, but I think that there's like a courage muscle that you build up over time. And so, yeah, like the first. stranger who read it was one hurdle. And then the first bad review was a hurdle in the first. So, so every single thing that kind of, you know, you cross multiple small thresholds of like, on the way to, to having it be out there and, and now it's out there.
And so, yeah, I'm happy. Scared and grateful and, Mm-Hmm. annoyed and all . Sure. All, all the feelings. Yeah.
Sarah:Sure. And how has your, as your relationship with Sean has evolved, how has that informed your other relationships?
Jessica:I think it's been very good in a lot of ways, and I think that I have. stronger and more honest relationships with most of the people in my family. Um, in the course of this story, I also, and this is like, again, less written about than lived, but I came into other like closer relationships with my other dad, like my dad, and I had had a bit of a strange relationship.
And so, so that was the other thing that was a bit scary about like opening my mind to these possibilities. Cause then it's like, Well, wait, I'm trying to deal with Sean here. And now, now there's my dad. And now, you know, these other, um, relationships. So, so on the whole, I think it's been really good and wonderful, but not without its hitches and not without its question marks.
And so the, the relationship that I'm most focused on is that with my son, cause he was nine when his dad died, he just turned 18. So he's a young man. Um, he's, Named in the story, and I don't know how the ripple effects of this book being in the world will affect his life. Um, I hope that they're more positive than negative, but I can't know that.
And so that's the one that I feel like. So when you asked me, I had a big hesitation. It's because I don't know the future. Um, but I do feel like by shining some light into these events, It changed the pattern. So I don't think that we're going to repeat, you know, the, the pattern that we were living. I think there's something new on the horizon for my son.
And so, oh, that makes me feel hopeful because, yeah, it was a bit of a, an unhealthy pattern up to this point. So, yeah.
Sarah:You know, I love, you know, as Sean helped you find this story and craft it and write it and publish it. It feels to me like, like a beautiful act of parenting that you both did for your son. And of course you don't know what exactly that will mean, but fuck, do any of us know what our parenting journey is going to do to or for our kids?
Jessica:I know it's so it's just so unfair that you can't, you don't really get the feedback you need until it's far too late to have any influence on the outcome.
Sarah:
Yes. Yeah, I know. So, what have I missed. What. Have I not? I'm pretty so.
Jessica;So the one thing that I would love your take on is a question that I'm being asked, um, a fair amount, which is like, don't the dead deserve privacy? Like how, like your, your title is the widow's guide to dead bastards. You know, um, aren't you overstepping for someone who can't defend themselves or answer an allegation?
Um, and I, you know, there's never time to answer a question like that properly. And I don't fully know. I don't think there's a clear. You know, answer one way or the other. But I'm curious to know what you think. And, and the part of me wants to say, like, are you sure they can't answer? And, and also, are you sure that the fear of them answering back isn't why we have that custom in the first place?
You know, people are afraid of being haunted or something like that, right? Like that might be one of the reasons why people, you know, don't want to say anything. Um, Negative about that. And I also for the greater purpose of it, like I believe that we all deserve dignity and respect and kindness. And so, you know, for the most part, that is how I want to treat the living and the dead.
Um, but I'm just not sure that the rules of the living apply. And so anyway, yeah, I just wondered what your take was on, on whether or not the dead are entitled to privacy or.
Sarah:First of all, this is your story. And second of all, He helped you write it. So you have his permission. And third of all, are they entitled to privacy?
I mean, kind of, but also they're not here and they're beyond. They're beyond privacy. We hold privacy probably as a way to protect each other from, from the shaming of, of other people's impressions. And it's, it's probably one of those social constructs that is, is there because of social constructs and I'll, I'll go ahead and allow it if anybody needs me to, to bless, you know, the element of privacy in the world.
So, so I get that, but the dead people, I just feel like they're. Like way better than us. They're not in a human form. They're not, yeah. I'm embarrassed. I, yeah, that I feel, I kind of feel like they don't need the, like, I think the idea of privacy exists for the living.
Jessica:Um, like you said, and I, yeah, I think, um, yeah, I feel okay.
Like I, I feel, and I actually feel like Sean would be super proud of me for like going ahead with this title. And it was one of his best friends who suggested it. Like there's, there's a lot to support it, but I don't, you know, I There's, I know that there are people who can't get past it and feel like, you know, it's just an egregious violation of something, um, that is sacrosanct and, and maybe it is for them, you know, like maybe that is true for them.
Um, but for, for me, I'm okay. I feel okay in my case about what I've done.
Sarah:You know, one of the things that this brings up that, um, this is a, um, a way that, that maybe I've felt isolated in my grief journey is. I don't think of my mother as a human anymore. And the way that people, even when, um, I want to say this with, with respect, even when people want to memorialize the memory of their beloved in some way, I have my, my honest response is, I mean, she's not a nurse anymore.
Like, like she, I, I'm not interested, frankly, in memorializing her human activities.
Jessica:That's really interesting. No, that's very interesting because I, I've sort of come to this idea that relational problems happen because someone's software is out of date. So like someone's changes, the other person doesn't update their version and then they're using an old version and then they can't relate to one another.
Um, and so like, I haven't found a case where that doesn't apply. And what you just said really apply because it's like, we're trying, we're holding the memory of the person. As they were alive and we haven't updated to the fact that they don't have a body they don't have a job they don't have a home, like, like, maybe their personality continues in my case with Sean like part of what made me feel like it might be him reaching back is because.
Like there's things he would do. Do you know what I mean? And things that he like, like, because he knew me and that I love books and music, like the things were coming through books and music a lot. Um, and so it felt like there was maybe some continued consciousness in terms of like an individuated personality.
And again, I don't know, but, but it felt like him and it felt like the memories were there. Um, but yeah, yeah. The, the idea that, We're holding, we're attached, we're holding their legacy still attached to their human form is probably makes it more painful for us or more full of friction for us or something like that.
Sarah:
So, yeah, yeah. It's always this weird thing when I see pictures of people's beloveds from another decade. It's like, they wouldn't wear that anymore. There's always been a dissonance there. Like that's. That's not who they would be today. This picture that you're looking at.
Jessica:
Yeah. Yeah. That's the idealized version of like when you felt they were the most beautiful or the something that you love about that moment that you are conjuring in your memory.
Um, but it's not about them, you know, yeah, I don't know. I. Yeah. Okay. I attend to my experience of my mother and the way that she formed me and the way that she attended to the world and how that informs my, my legacy and my work. Like I'm just much more interested in my own legacy than, than hers. And I, I give lots of appreciation for her legacy and how it has leaked into mine and to other people that we love.
It's like, like she is relevant, but, but not in a human way to me.
Jessica:
Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. It's. I'll be thinking about that after. Yeah, after we leave this conversation, because I think there's a lot. there to ponder and explore.
Sarah:Well, thank you so much for your time and your tenderness and your attention.
And for this fucking book, it was so good. I listened to it all at once and I'm going to listen to it again soon.
Jessica:Thanks for having me.
Sarah:And it was so great to connect and, and spend this time together. Yes.
Thank you so much for listening to this conversation. I would love to get this in the hands of more people who need it and would enjoy it. You can help me do that by forwarding it to someone you know would thank you, and by leaving a preferably five star glowing review on iTunes.
When life handed Jessica Waite a riveting, horrifying and surprisingly beautiful story, she transformed herself into a writer. Now she harnesses the healing potential of storytelling to help others find their way back to joy and connection. Jessica is the creator of www.endlesstories.love, a website for bereaved people to share memories. Her bestselling memoir, “The Widow’s Guide to Dead Bastards'' was listed as a notable book by The Washington Post, Goodreads, Chatelaine magazine and many other outlets. Jessica lives with her son and their enormous rescue dog on Treaty 7 territory in the city of Calgary, Alberta.
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Timestamps and topics:
00:17 Introducing Jessica Waite and Her Memoir
00:41 Unraveling the Double Life
01:56 The Healing Journey and Mystical Experiences
02:28 Jessica's Background and Initial Discoveries
03:37 Coping with Shocking Secrets
04:34 Strange Occurrences and Mystical Connections
05:09 The Mystery of Sean's True Identity
05:27 Common Grief Experiences and Resources
06:33 Jessica's Healing Process and Support Systems
09:31 Spiritual Experiences and Shifts in Belief
13:16 The Role of Grief in Human Development
15:31 Reorganizing Relationships After Loss
17:01 Perceiving and Interpreting Spiritual Signs
18:04 The Pact and Electrical Signs
19:21 Support from Beyond and Writing the Book
21:59 Induced After Death Communication
23:37 Current Perceptions and Technological Connections
26:18 Reflecting on the Healing Journey
29:04 Exploring the Persistence of Internal Experiences
29:39 Alice in Wonderland and the Concept of Right-Sizing
30:19 Friction Points in Relationships: Money and Sex
33:09 The Role of Anger in Reconciliation
35:32 The Power of Personal Stories and Anger
37:39 Revenge and Its Consequences
43:54 The Evolution of Relationships After Loss
46:41 Privacy and the Dead: A Complex Question
49:55 Reflections on Legacy and Memory
53:25 Conclusion and Final Thoughts
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