EPISODE 4: What Do You Think Happens When You Die? With Zack Wagner
In this episode, I'm joined by my brother Zack, who opens up about his life with acute myeloid leukemia at the age of 44. He shares what it's like to face such a challenging diagnosis, the impact it has had on him, his family, and especially how it has reshaped his views on death, as well as the beauty of life. all while maintaining a sense of humor and hope for the future.
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[00:00:00] Hi friends, this is your host, master coach and teacher Sarah Yost. You are listening to the About Death podcast, the show about living life on your own terms. Stick around if you want way more of what you want with way less anxiety.
Sarah: Today's conversation is with Zack Wagner. He is 44 years old and living with acute myeloid leukemia. He's also my brother and one of my favorite humans on the planet. He is pretty weird, super smart, neurodivergent as fuck, funny, and like I said, he's one of my favorites
just wait until you hear what he has to say about what he thinks happens to us after we go, and how he explains that to his 11 year old son. He and I don't agree completely, but I have to say that his perspective is incredibly generous, much more generous than mine. [00:01:00] I hope that you like him almost as much as I you'll hear some things that I think will surprise you about what it's like to live with cancer. The effect that it has on Zack's body is one thing, but the effect that it has had on his perspective, on his family, and on our parents, his creativity, his mind, all of it.
A lot of it surprised me and a lot of it moved me and I hope we'll do the same for you. With that, I'll give you Zack Wagner.
Zack: I'm not shy about anything about this topic. As recently as yesterday, we got some news that I was up in the air and I was talking to another friend of mine who has cancer because the world is terrible and lots of people get cancer and we were talking about,
how sensitive you have to be because it's so easy to make jokes to defend yourself and not recognize that it's really upsetting to other people who are taking it much more seriously. I should probably say [00:02:00] that what happened yesterday didn't end up being what they thought. I came in to the hospital experiencing shortness of breath, but I just showed up for clinic.
This has been happening for four or five days. And so it's just gotten worse and worse to the point where I was in a wheelchair yesterday. And if I try to walk, I just lose all my breath. And they told me, okay, that probably is a complication due to, differential syndrome, which is apparently the most likely way that I would have to stop this course of treatment.
So we spent the day running tests and I sat there wondering if I was going to be kicked off this treatment course. And the good news is at the end of the day, they don't know what it is, but they know it's not. They know it's not differential syndrome. It put me in a place where I was definitely thinking about death though, because this is my, this is my third course of treatment.
The first two didn't work. And while I've been told there is a plan D plan, D [00:03:00] is a hail Mary and I really want plan C to work.
Sarah: Yeah. Okay, let's just give some context. So what's happening here? What's wrong with you? Give us just give us the overview.
Zack: So last year, Labor day weekend. I just finished setting up my classroom. I'm a teacher and I'd gotten everything set up. It had taken me weeks. And suddenly I was having all sorts of issues.
I was also leading tours of haunted parts of town for fun over the summer. And I couldn't walk uphill without seeing stars and I'm just sit down and mystery bruises showed up all over my body. So I went to the doctor, as you do when bruises just started appearing. They took my blood and the next day I got a text from my doctor that said You need to get to the emergency room right now, no matter what it is you are doing.
So I went to the emergency room, I got taken in and apparently I have acute myeloid leukemia, which is a mutation of your [00:04:00] chromosomes that causes your white blood cells to turn cancerous and attack you. And so for the last six months or so, Oh, I should finish up the idea. I have not taught Even a minute the school year, because the 1st at school was after Labor Day weekend.
So I set up this entire classroom and the substitute teacher has used all of it. I assume. And I've been unable to work. I can't be around. People can't stand up for more than a few minutes at a time. Generally not seen as good to be around children. But, yeah, I have acute myeloid leukemia and, mr. Bible rate is. Not great, but not astronomical. And so for the last six months, I've been trying different treatment plants. the first two did not put me into remission. And so now I'm on, I'm trying a clinical study that doesn't involve chemotherapy. It involves a different kind of drug. And I'm really hoping that this one will get me into remission so I can move on to the next.
Phase which [00:05:00] come to think of it is actually only the second phase. I'm still on the first phase of my treatment six months later. Yeah, I think that So oh and i'll say this it's hard to tell what the problems are that are leukemia versus what's chemo versus what other stuff so at one point last year, I managed to catch C.
diff, which is a gut, virus and COVID on the same day while being neutropenic and what's neutropenic. I have no immune system. Your neutrophils or whatever they're called, they allow you to develop antibodies and have an immune system. So even though I've been vaccinated against COVID and I'd gotten all my updates and I'd had COVID, I didn't have any antibodies, so I got COVID again.
But like, that wasn't actually the leukemia's fault. That was the chemo.
Sarah: Right.
So C. diff and COVID on the same day. Okay. That sounds like a rough day. You said that was the worst day of your life?
Zack: [00:06:00] Yeah, I said it's the worst day of my life. Definitely from a health perspective. I don't know if it's the worst day of my life emotionally.
I don't think that there's a single day since this began that would qualify as the worst day of my life. I'm not trying to sound like, as I don't know, Pollyanna as this is going to sound, but over the last six months, I have not taken my family for granted. Once I have been present and appreciative in a way that is just not possible for a human to be present and appreciative.
Sarah: Yeah, just
Zack: like the time. It's not like I was an absentee father before, but. This, this sharpens you. And so the last six months, in spite of the fact that in spite of the fact that I've got this sort of Damocles hanging over my head, that I could die. And because of that have actually been some of the best six months of my life emotionally.
Sarah: Wow.
Zack: Yeah.
Sarah: Who saw that coming?
Zack: No, I, I wouldn't have.
It's, it's [00:07:00] been stunning.
Sarah: What's it like to be present like that?
Zack: Well, I will say there is to be present like that is it takes you out of yourself, right? This disease is very isolating, both literally, I can't be around people. And more esoterically because no one else kind of knows what you're going through, who's close to you.
Being present means taking these moments and going, I don't have the energy to do this. I would like to just sit here and scroll my phone or watch TV, but instead I'm going to do something because I don't know if I have that many more evenings and I want to play a game with my son. Right.
Sarah: Right.
Zack: Yeah. It doesn't have to be anything big.
And that's definitely something I've learned is that my son is just as happy playing charades with me like last night. As he would be if I took him to a Broadway show or something.
Sarah: Right.
Zack: So I think that's what being present is. The other thing is, when people live together, sometimes, you know, you can push on each other, greet on each [00:08:00] other. So we've always been happy and loving as a married couple. But every once in a while, you know, so it's like, Hey, could you stop doing this thing that's annoying or whatever that doesn't feel the same way. Because yeah, It's a, it's everything's in a lot, a different perspective, a longer view.
Sarah: Right.
Zack: I feel like this is how we should love each other every day, but I don't think we're built to feel this intensely towards one another every day. We need to be able to go on autopilot and take each other for granted sometimes, you know?
Sarah: Yeah.
Zack: But yeah, that's, that's why I'd say that none of these are that bad.
Sarah: Why though? Why do we need to do that? I mean, I know we do, but Why do you think say more about that?
Zack: I don't think in general. We can live our lives. We can live our best lives every day.
Some days are going to be sweat pants and ice cream for dinner.
Right? Some days are going to be. I tried this thing and it went bad. [00:09:00] Some days are going to be. I'm crying in my car. Right? But the point there is. Sometimes we need time to stare at the wall. We're not designed to be on all the time. To have good days all the time.
Sarah: Right.
Zack: But when you don't have a lot of days left and I don't know how many days I have left I could have plenty, right?
I don't want to step, but. When you don't know how many days you have left. It's a lot easier to feel that intensely every day.
Sarah: Yeah.
Zack: Yeah. But I really don't think we could do that every day. I can't think of a good way to describe it.
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You know, I've had a similar [00:10:00] experience. Since, since my mom died and I, you know, went into this different state. One of the things I've noticed, I mean, as far as like, I don't know, just being really present and really appreciative and, but one of the things I've noticed is, as I have started to return back to my life.
And start to take care of things that I hadn't had the capacity or interest in taking care of it that require like the things that that I want in my life require some autopilot, they require some of that in between human experience that you're talking about. And I have found that that I miss the, the kind of exquisite focus that comes with not taking care of any of that.
Zack: Yeah,
I get what you're saying. Absolutely. You know, there isn't a there's a everything tastes better.
Sarah: Yeah.
Zack: When you're burning like this, but
Sarah: it's hard to, like, call the bank and shit when you're feeling like this, like, you have to get in a different [00:11:00] zone or, like, to run errands or just take care of human existence means being in a different state.
Zack: No, I will say this. I feel differently about that right now. I am able to do so little in my life that a couple weeks ago when I cooked dinner for the family, I was, I was riding that high for days,
Sarah: you
Zack: know, crash down the curb. I'm just like, look at me. I'm Superman, you know?
Sarah: Yeah. Yeah.
Zack: Yeah. So I will say that is one way, which is different.
Sarah: What's it like for your wife? And so just for context, How long have you been married?
Zack: I have been married for let me do some subtraction. 17 years. 18 in the fall. We were together a year before that. So we're coming up on 20 years together. My son is 11. So that gives you a bit of a context.
There's just the three of us. We live in a small [00:12:00] apartment, and we chose this place because we moved to a new city that has lots of cool stuff to do outside,
so we don't
need room to play inside because we're going to go roam the city, right?
And
then now I can't leave. It's not a good choice. So anyway, that's that, but I don't remember what the question was.
Sarah: Just context, like what's
Zack: your situation? Yeah.
Sarah: Yeah. And what's it, what's it like for, what's it like for Tala as far as, you know, for your wife, as far as you know?
Zack: Her experience is more difficult than mine. Whatever else you want to say about my experience, I don't have to do much. I show up, they poke me, they take some blood, maybe they give me some blood. There's a lot of blood back and forth. They tell me what to do next and I move on. As a matter of fact, that's one thing I found recently, is I was between my treatment plans.
As long as I know what's happening next, [00:13:00] I'm fine. But it's once you're like, well, okay, we got two weeks to kill, we're not doing anything. Then I start to lose it. Yeah. But yeah, for her, she's got to not only do all the things she used to do as far as going to work and the stuff at home, but she's also got to do my stuff at home and more because she has to take care of me.
I can sometimes drive our child to whatever evening thing he's got music or dance or, you know, whatever, but I can't even do that all the time. And so it's a lot of work for her in terms of physical work, in terms of everyday work. And we're not talking about the emotional effort. It is.
I don't know that I could accurately describe what she's going through, even though I'm next to her and want to understand it. But she's, you know, been incredible. She's put herself out there in terms of there hasn't been a single challenge that she hasn't been able to step up to and, and take [00:14:00] care of.
Malcolm, my son, we're not asking him to do more, right? That's not, his experience isn't going to be like Tala's, but what we have, Had to do is say, I'm sorry, you're not going to be able to have friends over and you know, wear a mask at school. Right? He's handled it pretty well. But this was supposed to be his normal year.
We moved last year and we moved the year before. So he's making new friends that are in his school and everything was weird and everything was different this year. Was supposed to be the normal year where he get his feet under him and that lasted until right before the first day of school,
now, it helps that his teacher, is a friend of his new teacher this year, but that teacher happens to be a friend of Tala's and mine who already knows Malcolm, who is incredibly who gets Malcolm. And that's something we really, really appreciate. Are excited about, but, Malcolm has picked up [00:15:00] something recently that I didn't know who's going to pick up on.
He's making jokes as well.
Sarah: Yeah.
Zack: Yeah. The, the dark humor, gallows humor jokes about dying, you know, and that's a new thing. And I guess I hadn't realized that we were doing them so often around him, but that has become one of his defense mechanisms, you know, so yesterday. As we're trying, as the doctor and the nurse are sitting with me and they're saying, okay, it's not differential syndrome, but we don't know what it is.
They said the next most likely thing would be a pulmonary embolism, but your blood doesn't have enough, your blood is too cancery to clot. So you couldn't have an embolism. And that's no big deal. But my response was, oh. Are there other kinds of embolisms? Because my aunt died of an embolism before I was born.
Both of them immediately stood stock still. Like they were, they, they, they were laughing at, you know, your blood can't clot. [00:16:00] And then I said that offhandedly. Not with any idea that I was gonna upset them and they both immediately reacted like they'd done, like they'd done the rudest thing in the world, right?
And that's, when, when we're using the jokes and when we're talking about death so flippantly, It's not a normal thing for people outside of, of us. And I don't know, I don't feel good that I've given that to Malcolm. I want him to have defense mechanisms. The first thing that humans do when we learn about our mortality is create as many ways of, of denying or not thinking about it as we can.
But I'd like Malcolm to be more of the, if I say something about someone's head at. I am mortified than the offhandedly mentioning your dead aunt and mortifying people.
Sarah: Yeah,
My experience visiting you guys You know, there were lots of cancer and dying jokes. And I, I replay this scene [00:17:00] with Malcolm because I love it where we were playing video games and you had to take a break. And Malcolm was like, you can't even play video games for very long because you
Sarah: have cancer.
And I just love it.
Zack: Yeah. I figured out what the problem, my focus for that is because It's the, it's the, I've always had great eyes. I could still read, you know, the, the, I can read the ingredients off the back of the cereal box from across the room, but I can't, I can't spot things that are moving fast. And so if we're playing video games, I'm just like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
What's going on? Right? So I have to put the controller down which is, by the way, when you can't play video games, that's like the least effort of anything in the world. I can't play video games, I can't really watch movies or TV if I have to pay attention and understand the story, because I can't Keep focus for that long.
I'm having trouble reading or and all of [00:18:00] that is crazy because you think, Oh, I've got six months off of work. I can pick up all the reading. I wanted to do or do one of my hobbies or I'm going to write the great American novel or I'm going to get into great shape. None of those are things I can do,
so it's like, it's really just six months of waiting, so far.
Sarah: Are you bored?
Zack: That's not how I would describe it. Boredom is hell, to me. I I can't handle boredom. I would say more that, when I am by myself, the stakes are lower. Which means that if I'm doing a Sudoku, that is fine for being enough to keep me intrigued.
It's not boredom, but it's something because I've gotten to the point where days like I had on Monday and I'm pregnant tomorrow where I just show up and then I have to be given blood and I'm there for like six hours just sitting there. I've got a phone, I've got a TV, I brought a book, I brought puzzles, but I just gotta sit there for six hours.
I don't know if boredom is the right word but I've [00:19:00] gotten to the point where, I don't know, I'm over it. I'm ready for literally anything else.
Sarah: Yeah.
What's that like? Are you with other people around you or are you just in a little cubby or?
Zack: Oh, well, it's, I get like not a full room, not like I was gonna be sleeping there, but like half of a room. Yeah. Just by myself. I'm in a chair and I've got, I've got this tube that goes into my arm that, that Uhhuh called a pick, which is like a peripheral.
Oh no, I shouldn't have tried to do that. It is, it's a pick, which is an abbreviation. I don't remember, but it means a tube that sticks outta your body that they can attach things to. So then they attach blood or platelets, or. You know medicine or wherever they need and then they leave me. I've got a TV and they'll come back every half hour or so to check my vitals, make sure I'm, I'm not having a reaction to the, whatever I'm taking.
That's about it. And then that takes as long as it takes. There's a [00:20:00] good example of lowering the stakes, right? Daytime TV is not my favorite.
Sarah: No.
Zack: No. And the options have gotten even more limited. I didn't realize how bad cable has gotten in the era of streaming, but there's just nothing.
And maybe that's a the writer's strike. I don't know, but there's nothing on. I got to watch The Fugitive one day, but just came on AMC. And I didn't even see the the first half, which has like I didn't kill my wife. I don't care. All that cool stuff. Didn't get any of that. The second half, I was talking about it for like a week.
I was like, do you remember the fugitive? It holds up so well. The fugitive really does hold up so well. Yeah. And yeah, for like a week I was chewing people's ear off about the fugitive.
Sarah: Yeah,
Zack: that's the kind of thing where I'm saying the stakes are lowered. Right. I'm generally not an aficionado of 1990s Harrison Ford movies.
But that one, I don't know, it tickled me that day.
Sarah: Yeah. All right. I [00:21:00] hear you. I just listened to a redoing of Witness. Did you ever watch Witness with Harrison Ford?
Zack: No, I thought that was Himalayan and Kirstie Alley. No, that's the comedy about the Amish. Witness is the is a drama about the Amish.
Sarah: Yeah.
Zack: No, I, I don't, I've not seen it.
Sarah: Okay. Well, I hadn't seen it either, but Audible just redid it, updated it with like six or seven podcast series. It was pretty good. Anyway. Harrison Ford. Somebody else is tickled with 90s Harrison Ford, or 80s, or whatever the fuck that was.
Zack: Anyway. Are you aware of our father's opinion on Harrison Ford?
Sarah: That's who! I was just thinking, like, who the fuck hates Harrison Ford? Okay, yes, tell me.
Zack: Our father believes that Harrison Ford Can't do an interesting character. Yeah. Harrison Ford, who is Indiana Jones, Harrison Ford, who is Han Solo, a character so interesting, we've watched like six other people who are just doing Han Solo, but have different names.
Yeah. Call it Firefly. Call it Guardians of the Galaxy. Right. He was in [00:22:00] Blade Runner. He was Rick Deckard. Right. He was what's the Tom Clancy. He was Jack Ryan. For goodness sake. Yeah.. It's mind blowing. What kind of resume do you need to satisfy this man?
And if you bring up Harrison Ford, do you know what he's going to say?
Sarah: Tell me.
Zack: Have you seen his first movie? Oh. American Graffiti.
Sarah: Oh, I don't know if he said that to me. Because we did have this conversation, probably because I was talking about Witness. I think he gave me a thing about how Indiana Jones was okay, but by the third time, it was terrible.
Zack: The third Indiana Jones was the best one. Ugh. His Harrison Ford opinions are not his best.
Sarah: Oh, okay.
Zack: Everyone's allowed to be wrong about something. That's what he's going to be wrong about.
Sarah: All right. You think that's all he's wrong about?
Zack: No, but but the Harrison Ford thing might be the thing he's wrongest about.
Sarah: So what's it like with that, like with the parents? What do you think it's like for them [00:23:00] or for you to interact with them?
Zack: They have come and offered as much help as they can, which isn't much because concurrently to me being hospitalized with cancer. My father is, our father is hospitalized with his own issues. And so they've had to kind of go back and forth and, you know, mom is, is trying to deal with dad in the same way that Tal is dealing with me.
And. It seems like one thing that maybe even is helping, and that's the wrong word. It's not helping, but they have stuff to do, right? It's the opposite of me sitting here on my hands, but I know that they would both like to be here and helping pop, for example, has been insistent that he would give.
Zack: Platelets for me. Yeah.
And even marrow for transfusion. And my doctors do not want that. His marrow is old and dusty, and they do not want it.
Sarah: And they have terrible ideas about Harrison Ford. We don't want that shit running through [00:24:00] you.
Zack: The doctors have a cutoff date of 40 years old,
Sarah: which I have an issue with also, because I also want to give you all of my body parts and I'm pretty spry for a 48 year old.
I'm just saying.
Zack: Yeah. But they want me to like absorb the life energy of children. That's what they want me to do. Whatever. In any case, there's a 24 year old woman with my blood type. Somewhere in the United States who is a perfect match for me and is simply waiting to be told when she needs to go into the hospital and give her marrow.
Sarah: fuck.
Zack: Yeah. I will never know her name. I'll never know more information than I just said. And if I live, it's because she saved me. And I can't pay that back either. I can't put myself on the registry to give anyone else marrow because my marrow is gross and useless.
Sarah: Also you're over 40.
Zack: Oh, also I'm over 40.
Yes. Malcolm has talked about wanting to give marrow, but also is there a way to do it without having to get a shot? maybe we'll do some other kinds of [00:25:00] work to put positive energy back into the universe, you know,
Sarah: sign
Zack: people up for it. Maybe. Yeah.
Sarah: Ooh, that's good. Okay.
Zack: Pardon me, sir. Your marrow looks awesome.
Sarah: Hey, little lady, you look like you'd have some pretty sweet marrow. Give me your digits.
Zack: No, no, no, no. I'm not a creep who's gonna make broth out of you. That's not what we're talking about.
Sarah: Marrow broth. Bone broth.
Zack: Mm hmm. but you were about to say something.
Sarah: What was it?
Zack: Oh, I don't know.
Sarah: Okay. So tell us about this. There are some things that, that I just never even knew about your process. I think are interesting. One is, so you're on this clinical trial, which means you're, which part of which means you're using a pill that is already used for something else.
So tell us about taking 20 pills every five minutes. Just tell us about that.
Zack: Okay. The first thing I'll say is. Because it's used for something else, they use it as a very small dosage. So those are already made so they want to use those. Now I'm taking 200 milligrams I'm taking 200 milligrams of that [00:26:00] twice a day, and the pills are 20 milligrams.
So I take 10 pills in the morning of that and 10 pills in the evening of that. That's almost half of my total pill count but they are at least very small. And I've been told that they're, that they've given feedback to maybe not have so many tiny pills,
that's not as much of an issue except for nights like last night.
So I'm trying to fill up two weeks in advance and counting out, you know, 20 of these tiny pills that are I tried maybe confetti size, like mini confetti size, right, and count them out and sort them out into 14 days worth. What is that? If I'm doing 20 a day, 280 pills before we even worry about the other ones.
So that's the only time it's an issue, but like, it took me an hour and a half yesterday.
Sarah: Yeah.
Zack: Paula went to the gym and I was sorting pills. She came home from the gym and I was, Sorting pills.
Sarah: Wow.
Zack: Yeah.
Sarah: [00:27:00] That's why you're not bored because you have
Zack: exactly. I've got all sorts of enrichment in my enclosure.
Sarah: Oh, that's great. It's good for your better skills too.
Zack: Yeah. And normally it wouldn't have been as complicated as last night, but we had several different new medications. Because I started the study about a week ago,
I had when I was updating my pills, my pill containers, I had to do some light changes because we're not using this antibiotic.
You're using that 1. we're not using this antifungal. We're using that 1. right? And so I had to sort of. Go through my whole sheet and re audit the whole thing.
Sarah: Right. That takes a lot of executive function.
Zack: It does, which is why I'd put it off for so long. And just every time I needed to take pills, read the thing and do it for one day.
Sarah: Yeah.
Zack: It is not a coincidence that I found the executive function for it on the same day I found where I lost my bottle of Adderall.
Sarah: Uh huh.
Okay, so let's talk about that some more. So what do you think happens when you die?
Zack: what I think happens when I die the way I don't like about that [00:28:00] statement. This is very close to what I believe I don't feel like I have to believe or think. We know what happens after we die. We get put in the ground. We're done. It's the end of the, the, the road. There's nothing. For me, it is not a question of belief or think.
It is as certain as gravity that there's nothing after this, which is not as comforting. In this moment, as perhaps I would like, but I can't change the fact that it is obvious and true to me in a way that can't be changed. I, you know, I feel like I know it on such a deep level. Other people have different opinions, obviously but I'm not at the point where I can say who can say there's a lot of different things that could be,
I was explaining it to Malcolm this way. Have you heard the expression that we're made of star stuff?
Sarah: Right.
Zack: In order to be made of star stuff, in order [00:29:00] for the molecules in my body to have spent time in a supernova light years away, or our local sun, right, that I, they had to not be in me.
Sarah: Right.
Zack: My molecules.
Have been in Napoleon Bonaparte or um, Hannibal Lecter, not Hannibal Lecter, what's his name? Doesn't matter. But my, my molecules have been used by heroes and villains and monsters and an alligator one time, right? Dinosaurs. They've gone through the furnace of the sun, but the only way that can happen is if I let go of them so the next person can have them too.
Sarah: Hmm.
Zack: This isn't. My body, it's just my turn with it. And that is not comforting, but I think it could still be beautiful. Right.
It's okay that there's no more of me because that means that there can be all of this other magical and awesome stuff.
Obviously my 11 year old did not find that [00:30:00] satisfying.
Sarah: Will you say that again? The last thing.
You know, You give up your body so that there can be all this other stuff. Will you say that again?
Zack: Yeah. It is not comforting to say this is my, this is not my body. This is just my turn with it. It doesn't make you feel good, and it doesn't alleviate the fear of the future. But what it is, is that you're not alone. It's beautiful. It's beautiful that by releasing my body back to the universe, we can have another Genghis Khan, Napoleon Bonaparte, that this can go through the sun again.
That is beautiful to me. If I look around at the things that are beautiful to me right now, and the first thing I, I light on is the same 11 year old who does not find this comforting. Someone had to give up their molecules for him. And if they hadn't, I wouldn't get him.
Sarah: Right.
Zack: We're all just cosmic kindergartners who want it to be our turn every time.
Sarah: Yeah.
Zack: But it can't be. Somebody else has got to use the [00:31:00] swing.
Sarah: What about all the personality and energy and imagination, like what about all the shit that you can't touch that's you? What happens to all of that?
Zack: I guess the two ways to think of it are, it's gone, in the same way that my consciousness is gone, or what I have, the second way would be, whatever I have created and put out into the world still exists even though I'm not there, And in that regard, I. Am alive on some level, but not on a literal level. My hope is not that my creativity and whatever else has created some sort of legacy for me after I'm gone. I keep coming back to the idea that
that I owe something to the universe and I don't feel like I've paid my debt. I don't feel like I've done enough good that will, that will last beyond me to justify the amount of good I've taken from the world.
Sarah: Do you have any idea of what your debt is?
Zack: I guess there's a specific and a general, [00:32:00] So take specifically, if there is some sort of karmic ledger, which obviously no one, there's no one behind the scenes whose job it is to judge good and bad and keep score.
Sarah: What about the old guy in the wizard hat? No,
Zack: no, nobody's keeping score. There's no Alex Trebek, who's figuring it all out for us, right?
There is this idea that, so the specific side of where I, I'm imbalanced, let's, this is just an example. I use three units of blood every week, two units I've given blood and I've given platelets. I've never given anywhere near that amount. I lived in the UK for two years and for about, I don't know, 10 years afterwards, I wasn't allowed to give blood because there were spears of mad cow.
So like I didn't give any in that time. But even if I had given blood every time I was available to, Grandpa Melvin did who [00:33:00] gave I think 22 gallons in his life I don't think I could have kept up with the amount of blood I'm using, right? That's a very specific and very literal one, right? We can count the units of blood I've given and count the units of blood I've taken.
But more generally. I've lived a life of on one hand, you could say privilege, On another hand, you could say I've lived a life of happiness, right? Those are two different things. But what, what, what they both come back to is. I've had a pretty good time in my time.
Sarah: Yeah.
Zack: A lot of people don't get that.
And because I'm having such a good time in my time, I should make sure that other people have a good time in their time as well. Like I, like I mentioned, I'm a teacher. I recently changed from college to middle school and helping the children is incredibly satisfying. But I think that's the same pole.
I want to go help these kids who are right in front of me and, you know, maybe I can't change the world, but I can change their world in a very small way. And that's me trying to put something [00:34:00] good back in the universe because I've had it so good for so long. I hope that even if I hadn't had it so good for so long, I would still want to put good things back in the universe.
Sarah: Yeah.
Zack: Right now, I feel. Exposed on whatever, whatever balance there is in the universe.
Sarah: There's something really beautiful about grandpa Melvin giving 22 gallons of blood and you taking that it's like he paid your debt for you
Zack: I hadn't thought of that. That is really beautiful Especially because if he were between the ages of 20 and 40, he'd be the first one in line to give me his marrow
Sarah: Yeah,
Zack: right The same way that you want, the same way that dad wants to, he would absolutely have done it and he'll never know that he got to give me, yeah, that, that
that's a really great point that kind of knocked me on my butt.
Grandpa Melvin. I got the impression he's of a different generation, but you could see him at the edge of these conversations where [00:35:00] it was clear that we were heading towards saying, you know, I love you goodbye. Right. Or something serious. And you could see him start to, to move his feet back and forth.
You could tell that he wasn't comfortable with that. And he showed his love other ways. And, you know, he wouldn't have said anything besides like, Oh, keep it between the when you're driving.
And so. Here he is. Maybe he's not able to say I love you the way that the rest of us are, but showing his love in a really powerful way.
Sarah: Yeah.
You said something about, you know, having had a really good time and a really good go of it and not everybody has. And I just want to point out the obvious. Which is that you've had me as a sister.
Zack: Okay. Yeah, that's been pretty great.
Sarah: Yeah,
Zack: you know yeah, it's interesting because You just mentioned how family can be paying off our debts.
Sarah: Yeah,
Zack: you know Maybe the answer is the best thing i've done for the universe is put malcolm in here And [00:36:00] he can help put out some of my debts
Sarah: Maybe.
Zack: But I don't want to put that kind of pressure on him.
Sarah: Well, he'll do it in a way that we don't see coming. Melvin didn't see this coming. It's, it's so, you know, conversations like this, it's clear that time is not linear, it goes in all directions.
Our connections go in all directions. And it's, you know, it's just wild how we're, we're led or compelled to live or do certain things. And we never know what, we never know what the connection is, but there is, there is.
Zack: Yeah you can't shake a limb without moving the whole tree, right? We are all connected to one another in a variety of ways.
And time isn't linear. If we could stand outside in this other dimension and look down on it, we would see Kurt Vonnegut described it as like worms made of people as you saw them moving through time. And I just, I want to say that two things can be true. Time is not linear where these worms made of people And we're all connected to each other [00:37:00] in a hundred different ways.
And also this is all there is our job. The universe is an uncaring place, an unfeeling place. And we were created, no, we weren't created to it's an unfeeling place. And humans are the only things we know. In the universe that can care. So it's our job to care. It is entirely possible for the world to exist.
as metaphysically interesting as you want it to, and also as physically, literally limited as I have experienced it to be. That doesn't excuse us from caring, because if we don't, then the universe doesn't have anyone to care.
Sarah: How do you think about your future?
Zack: I try to avoid it a lot, because let's say everything goes swimmingly, and this time [00:38:00] next year we're I don't know, getting together for my 44th birthday. I don't know that I have a job lined up for the fall. I talked to my, the principal of the school I was teaching at. And she seemed ready to give me a job back. And then that same day, send email out to everybody on the list about the new teacher they'd hired, who just happens to teach the same thing I teach.
So I don't know what the plan is there. Yeah. I don't know. A lot of things. So I try, I can't make plans, but it helps to have one thing in front of me that I gotta do.
I gotta go
get my blood done tomorrow. I gotta make sure I take my pills. Not a great example today, you know,
Sarah: have you taken your Adderall?
Zack: No.
Sarah: Yeah
Zack: Adderall to be helpful because it's the only pill that makes me feel different when I take it That's why I know that I've taken my pills.
Sarah: Yeah
Zack: Yeah,
Sarah: and [00:39:00] what so one of the things that that I'm interested in that I don't hear from you is I love your brain I love the way it works. I love how fucking weird you are. Okay. And how smart and quick you are. And I don't know, like, you know, things and see things in a particular way. Is that important to your legacy to you?
Zack: I mean, I can't answer that question simply because I couldn't be me without my perspective on the world. Is that part of my legacy? It's part of who I am. I
Sarah: mean, do you have like shit that you want to get out there?
Like, do you want your ideas to be spread? Do you want to create? If you had the bandwidth and the capacity, do you want to create something? Do you want to give back or spread or share in that way? Is that
Zack: that's such a great question? Because if you'd asked me a year ago,
the answer
would have been, of course,
Sarah: right?
Zack: I want to get my message out to as many people as possible because I think it's an important [00:40:00] message or I think it's right. And now I'm like, I want to create things because I enjoy creating things. I don't necessarily want to do it to reach an audience. And also I can't really create things right now cause I can't pay attention for 15 minutes straight or hold tools without my hand shaking.
But no, the reason it's a great question is. It's not about my legacy. It's about the fact that if I were able to miss something about being alive, making things would be right there at the top of the list.
It's like the most human thing there is. If you put a human alone in a cave, they'll paint. If you can take away the cave and just make a human be alone in a field, they're going to sculpt something out of mud. You know, we like making things and that's okay. And there doesn't have to be a reason for it.
It's part of being alive, you know, I don't even know if it's for fun. I think I feel like it's just like a physical process. Like I don't [00:41:00] know.
Part of being human.
Where are you at with that? Do you, is it important to you that. Things get heard.
Sarah: I have two minds. Okay. Fundamentally and overall, yes, I have,
Quite a body of work that I want to create and share. And also, I don't give a shit and nothing matters. So I'm just re entering, I'm just starting to re enter My own life and I am remembering vaguely that I have shit to do and create,
Zack: I think for you, and this is just one person's perspective, I think that the way that you put good things back in the universe is by reaching an audience, right? That's that's how you balance the cosmic ledger or what have you.
And so I think it is important that you're heard because that's how you, that's how you get good out into the world. And I certainly don't want to make it sound like The fact that I [00:42:00] don't want to I don't want that big audience I mean that anyone who does is mistaken because I think you're a great example that the audience could be a powerful tool Well,
Sarah: I have this set like one of the things that's happened in my perspective is
So, so usually I feel like I know a lot like not like just disclaimer like not to be an asshole, but I know a lot. I'm obsessed with the human insight, the human experience. And because of that, I understand and know how to navigate things that other people don't. And so, so usually I want other people to know that to make it easy.
It's like I've gone out in the field and I know this stuff. Let me show you around. Let me show you how to make it easier. And that is a compulsion that I've carried for a long time in various ways. But then in this last period where I don't give a shit, I'm just like, I like, sometimes it's like, Oh, everybody [00:43:00] knows this shit.
It didn't really matter. Anyway, go figure it out yourself. Fuck off. Like I, it's like, I still know the things, but it's created sort of a division. It's like, I don't have the energy or capacity or give a shit gene to share it with anybody. So I don't know. It's been isolating.
Zack: I do think we tend to surround ourselves with people who have similar interests, and we tend to tell the people we surround ourselves with things we learned.
And
so, what that means is, after enough time, it feels like everyone knows the things we know, because you surround yourself with people who know it, or have heard you say it. Yeah. Although I did manage to pull out a new one this week that I thought was pretty entertaining. We were at REI, and Tala needed a rain jacket.
And she came over and she was like, okay, this one's good. I was like, no, no, no. That's a,
Sarah: we were doing rain jacket shopping at REI too recently. Weird. Okay. It
Zack: is weird. I was like, oh no, no, that's a one L you need to at least a 1. 5 L. It's got the webbing. It's going to [00:44:00] keep the sweat off your back. And she's like, really?
I know that. I was like, I just know about rain jackets. So she goes back with another one and she's like, this one's too heavy. I'm like, no, it's actually going to be cooler because the other one is going to retain heat and this one is going to allow it to go out and hear the, the I bet you it has zippers on the sides and it did to vent things.
I said, it's going to be cooler and warmer depending on which one you want. This is the one to go with. And she just stared at me like, why on earth do you do all this? And the answer is I really wanted a rain jacket like eight years ago. I know. Like a week learning everything about rain jackets. And I didn't mention it to her because why would I?
And so here we are eight years later, I just pulled that out. Yeah, I
Sarah: know. Yeah. Hey, do you happen to remember which one she went with? Or could you like find out? Or I can text her and ask her?
Zack: Because I'm gonna need that.
She's wearing it today. So I can't go look. I want to say it's Oh, whichever brand that [00:45:00] is. Oh,
Sarah: outdoor research. Oh, our
Zack: maybe? Yeah. Yeah. And she went with one that was a little bit heavier, because she wanted it to be a springtime jacket.
Sarah: Okay.
Zack: Cause we're in that, you know, yucky type of weather or it's although one thing I did not know about rain jackets when I bought the one that I've got, that I love is that if you buy one that's bright yellow, like a rain jacket should be, then you can't wear it any other time because it just looks like you're wearing a rain jacket.
Sarah: I mean, You could probably rock it though. I mean I wore a head to toe Rain jacket colored dress last night. I don't think anybody thought I was in the rain I think they just thought I was fucking hot.
Zack: Was it a hooded jacket that you were wearing?
Sarah: No, but i'm just saying like a lot of yellow You could just rock it the same way is all i'm saying.
I
Zack: do like to rock an occasional very bright color.
Sarah: Like yeah
What else should we say? What else do you want to? You Do you want people to know [00:46:00] about
Zack: this experience of being, of having cancer, of being near death, of thinking about my death more often than I'd like to, of going to the hospital three times a week to get poked and prodded. That's my life right now. So in the same way that you might talk about work or your hobbies or show you went to, all I've got to talk about is hospital stories of death and dying.
So I'm sorry. That's what I would like them to know. I'm not trying to make it all about me and my cancer, but there's literally nothing else in my life right now that I do. Do you want to hear about me doing 24 Sudokus in a row? No.
So if you've got someone in your life who is currently going through cancer treatment and that's all they talk about, it doesn't mean that they don't care about you. It doesn't mean that they're being egotistical. It's just, It's kind of all we got.
Sarah: Yeah.
Thank you.
Zack: Oh, no, no problem. I hope this turns out great [00:47:00] for you.
Sarah: I hope it turns out great for you.
Zack: Thank you. It would be great to come back on next year and talk about this from the other side. The other side of cancer not the other side of the veil between the living and the dead,
Sarah: right? Because you'll be gone, but for sure i'll be talking to somebody who talks to people on the other side So you might get your ass on here whether you like it or not
Zack: Has anyone tried using a ouija board during a podcast?
I don't think it would work in the medium
Sarah: Well, I don't think ouija boards are the most reliable way of talking to the other side. I'm not sure it's not my area, but I'll keep you posted.
Zack: Okay. For sure. Or I'll keep you posted.
Sarah: Oh, or you could like stay alive and we could just have a conversation like live person to live person.
Zack: You're right. There are steps I could take before trying to contact you from the spirit realm.
Sarah: Like maybe we could talk before then, if you don't mind.
Zack: All right. All right. This sounds good to me. [00:48:00]
Sarah: Okay. Happy birthday, early birthday.
Zack: Thank you. Later than usual because of the stupid leap year. Gotta wait.
Sarah: Fuckers.
Zack: Usually my birthday is two weeks after Jake's, which is two days ago instead of one day ago.
Sarah: Yeah. Ooh, we're talking on leap day.
Zack: No, yeah, no, Jake was born on the 27th.
Yeah, oh yeah, we are talking on leap day. I thought, I'm sorry, I misunderstood.
Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. Well, this is supposed to be, obviously, an important, powerful day to manifest your shit.
So you want to manifest something? This is the day to do it.
Zack: All right, I'll have to think about what I want to manifest.
I don't feel like you can, like, try to manifest a cure for cancer. That feels, I don't know, against the spirit. Feels greedy. It's like wishing for a million wishes, you know?
Sarah: Well, I mean, don't you think it would benefit other people besides just you?
Zack: Yeah, and also, this is probably something I should say, if anyone's interested.
I don't know if they are. If this clinical study works, then treatment for leukemia would be, [00:49:00] take these pills and I'll see you for the transplant.
Sarah: Fuck.
Zack: Right? Like, the last six months of my life would disappear. That's not a cure for cancer, but it's pretty fucking good.
Sarah: I'll take it.
Zack: Yeah.
Sarah: Are these pills going to make you sick?
Are you going to have side effects and shit like you did with chemo? Or do you know?
Zack: In theory, it should be much lighter than it is with chemo because chemo kills my cells to stop the cancer. And it just hopes that it kills the cancer before it kills me. Right. Which is metal, right? Sure. Let's see which one of us blinks first, right?
This medicine instead tries to change my white blood cells. So what it doesn't want to do is kill the cells, it wants to save them.
Sarah: Right.
Zack: So in theory, I should have a much lighter side effects. But then again, I've been in this thing for a week and change, and I spent yesterday at a hospital because I couldn't breathe.
So [00:50:00] who knows? Probably anytime you take pills that are meant to change the nature of your cells, you're at risk for weird things happening.
Sarah: Probably weird shit's going to happen.
Zack: It's the same thing. I have to get a bone marrow biopsy about once a month. And that means that they have to stick a needle into me and trap off a piece of my bone and bring it out.
Right. And yes, I get to see the bone and I've now seen the needles, which I wish I hadn't, but, the doctors who do it are always like, oh, I'm so sorry. Oh man, does that hurt? And it's like, yeah, you're taking a bone out of my body.
I'm generally not used to that , but at the same time, I knew it was going to hurt when I signed up for it. It's not like stealing my bones is secret.
Sarah: Yeah, and like, like secret organ taking things.
Zack: Right, right.
Sarah: So we'll know in three weeks how this is going, theoretically?
Zack: We could know in two weeks. It's a 28 day [00:51:00] cycle,
and then I'll get a bone marrow biopsy So if I remember correctly on when the bone marrow biopsy is yes Three weeks would be when we get the results and it could be hey, you're in remission Let's send you off, but there's they've been really cagey about when we would think it's likely How many cycles they don't want to say you should see it after one or you should see after seven, right?
So we could know in three weeks or we could be still in a holding pattern.
Sarah: Okay. All right
Zack: my white blood cell count Now is that what it is or my absolute neutrophils? I don't remember which they tripled From last week to this week, which sounds great, right? Except that you're supposed to have like 10,
000.
And mine tripled from
Sarah: like one to three,
Zack: 60 to 170.
Sarah: Yeah.
Zack: Like, okay, well,
Sarah: listen, motherfucker. That is the right direction.
Zack: Yep. Yeah. Yeah. I will be I'll be [00:52:00] leading a parade if I get another triple, right. Even though that still puts me at about 500 when I need 20 times that whatcha gonna do?
Sarah: What are you gonna do?
Give 'em your
bone?
Zack: Mm-Hmm.
Sarah: do some puzzles.
Zack: It'd be so much easier if they just take a bunch of bones at once.
Sarah: Sure.
Zack: And then, and then every time they want a biopsy, they could just grab one out of the fridge or something.
Sarah: Right. But then they don't see the updated, like, how are they gonna plug you in?
I
Zack: don't know. They're doctors. They'll figure it out.
We'll talk again soon and it won't be this serious, right?
Sarah: I mean, it's okay if it is. Whatever.
Zack: All right. See you next time.
Sarah: All right. I love you. Bye.
Zack: Love you. Bye.
Sarah: Thanks for listening to About Death, the podcast about living life on your own terms. Would you help me get our guest stories into the hands of people who need to hear them? One thing you can do is think about who you know who would love this episode. Send it to them or leave a rating and [00:53:00] review, especially if it's a good one.
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See you next time.
ABOUT ZACK:
Dr. Zachary Wagner has spent his life interpreting media, for better or worse. He makes his living as an educator, often coaching speech and debate, so that the world won’t run out of arrogant, contentious young people. He lives in Washington, D.C. with his wife, child, and various cats.
Timestamps And Topics
00:00 Welcome to About Death: Living Life on Your Terms
00:20 Zack Wagner's Battle with Acute Myeloid Leukemia
01:32 The Emotional and Physical Journey of Cancer
06:11 Finding Presence and Appreciation Amidst Illness
11:32 The Impact of Illness on Family Dynamics
25:36 Navigating Treatment and the Clinical Trial Experience
27:24 Navigating Medication Management and Finding Focus
27:53 Contemplating the Afterlife and Existential Beliefs
28:51 The Cosmic Cycle of Life and Legacy
31:35 Balancing the Cosmic Ledger: Debts and Contributions
33:38 The Impact of Teaching and Giving Back
37:50 Navigating Uncertainty and Future Plans
38:58 Personal Reflections on Creativity and Legacy
46:01 The Personal Journey Through Cancer Treatment
52:30 Closing Thoughts and Looking Ahead
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